Random Thoughts About God And Physics

[sixpence]

thanks for posting! its funny.... i do hate physics... (sorry ) but I have totally had some very similar thoughts on light /relativity/ God..
I'm also not sure on the bit about the wave-functions, but I think you explained them alright and I see where you would make the connection..

[TheresaThoma]

Brian,
This just totally made my day! I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees God in physics. (I'm a juniorish in an Aerospace Physics program). At one point I was taking both a Theology class and a Physics class, when we got to the more "out there" stuff in physics I felt like I was in my Theo class.
I also like the wave-function example. It makes sense to me, now I must go see if we will be covering that in my waves and vibration class. It made me think of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle and how that could be used to help explain the Trinity. When it makes sense in my head I will get back to you. Thanks for sharing!

[brianthephysicist]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1315456590' post='2302034']
Hehe, it's more like...I know what wave functions are, and I know what the Trinity is, but I don't think the analogy works.
[/quote]

So, I've been thinking a lot about what I said about the collapse of the wave-functions. I think that my earlier approach of the collapse of a single wave-function doesn't make as much sense as the idea of a superposition of wave-functions (eigenstates). Before I begin to explain, I have to introduce the term eigenstate. I'm sorry in advance for not being able to describe this as much as I would like. Quantum mechanics is based on the solution of the Schrodinger equation. In our solution, we find one or more generalized wave-functions, which can often be described in terms of the energy of the particle. But we also find that the particle can only carry certain energies, called eigenenergies. When we put this energy back into our generalized wave-functions, we can see that the particle can only occupy certain wave-functions, which we call eigenstates. Because these eigenstates and eigenenergies can only take certain values, we can number them with various indices, depending on the number of constraints. An example of one index is shown in the picture I posted earlier, with n = 1, 2, 3, ... A more complicated problem can exhibit multiple indices, generally written as an ordered pair or a vector such as n = (1, 1), (1, 2), ... or n = (1, 1, 1), (1, 1, 2), ... For these cases of multiple indices, sometimes (but not often), we can find two different n 's that would give us the same eigenenergy, such as E[sub]1, 1, 2[/sub] = E[sub]1, 2, 1[/sub] = E[sub]2, 1, 1[/sub] = some constant. The corresponding eigenstates, however, are different. The particle's motion is governed by it's wave-function. When a particle has an energy that corresponds to multiple states, its wave-function can be written as a linear superposition of the allowed eigenstates. These eigenstates can be very different from each other, but since all of them satisfy the Schrodinger equation, they are each valid in describing the particle. These eigenstates 'overlap' each other, the particle exists partially in each of these physically separate states at the same time. A single eigenstate can completely describe a particle's motion on its own, but we can find many examples of particle being described by a superposition of multiple eigenstates. I'm sorry for my rambling, I don't know how to express this better. I know I don't express it very well, but I see a correlation with the necessity of three Persons in describing God. Again, I only really have a vague notion for this.

[brianthephysicist]

[quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1315496130' post='2302153']
thanks for posting! its funny.... i do hate physics... (sorry ) but I have totally had some very similar thoughts on light /relativity/ God..
I'm also not sure on the bit about the wave-functions, but I think you explained them alright and I see where you would make the connection..
[/quote]

Haha yea, most of the people I know hate physics too so don't worry about it.

[brianthephysicist]

[quote name='TheresaThoma' timestamp='1315522132' post='2302321']
Brian,
This just totally made my day! I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees God in physics. (I'm a juniorish in an Aerospace Physics program). At one point I was taking both a Theology class and a Physics class, when we got to the more "out there" stuff in physics I felt like I was in my Theo class.
I also like the wave-function example. It makes sense to me, now I must go see if we will be covering that in my waves and vibration class. It made me think of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle and how that could be used to help explain the Trinity. When it makes sense in my head I will get back to you. Thanks for sharing!
[/quote]

Yea, some of that 'out there' stuff we have to accept without fully understanding in order to move forward in physics. It's funny, how much in science we take on pure faith and yet so many people don't understand that science and faith go hand in hand.

Waves and vibration sounds like it would be a class in classical physics, or if anything it may include relativity. If that's the case, then you won't see wave-functions there. This, like the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, is purely quantum mechanical. I know Aerospace tends to focus more on macroscopic things, but you'll see it when you take a 300 or 400 level quantum.

I can't wait to hear your thoughts on the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.

Although, that does remind me of some thoughts I've had about concept of borrowing energy from the 'universe'. My head is still trying to recover from my last really long post giving a second try at describing the Trinity, but I'll come back and post on this idea and its relation to miracles when I can think clearly again lol.

[brianthephysicist]

[quote name='TheresaThoma' timestamp='1315522132' post='2302321']
Brian,
This just totally made my day! I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees God in physics. (I'm a juniorish in an Aerospace Physics program). At one point I was taking both a Theology class and a Physics class, when we got to the more "out there" stuff in physics I felt like I was in my Theo class.
I also like the wave-function example. It makes sense to me, now I must go see if we will be covering that in my waves and vibration class. It made me think of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle and how that could be used to help explain the Trinity. When it makes sense in my head I will get back to you. Thanks for sharing!
[/quote]

Yea, some of that 'out there' stuff we have to accept without fully understanding in order to move forward in physics. It's funny, how much in science we take on pure faith and yet so many people don't understand that science and faith go hand in hand.

Waves and vibration sounds like it would be a class in classical physics, or if anything it may include relativity. If that's the case, then you won't see wave-functions there. This, like the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, is purely quantum mechanical. I know Aerospace tends to focus more on macroscopic things, but you'll see it when you take a 300 or 400 level quantum.

I can't wait to hear your thoughts on the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.

Although, that does remind me of some thoughts I've had about concept of borrowing energy from the 'universe'. My head is still trying to recover from my last really long post giving a second try at describing the Trinity, but I'll come back and post on this idea and its relation to miracles when I can think clearly again lol.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='brianthephysicist' timestamp='1315453522' post='2302015']
Yea, I'm sorry. I can't really explain it as well as I'd like. I think of it loosely like St. Patrick's analogy with the 3 leaf clover....just more vague lol.
[/quote]

Actually, I like Fr. Johnpaul Cafiero's description (delivered in a Joe Pesci voice):

"OK, you got a pizza. You divide it into three equal slices. Is slice 1 the same as slice 2? NO! Is slice 2 the same as slice 3? NO! Is slice 3 the same as slice 1? NO! Is it a pizza? YES! Hear that, Augustine?"

Edited September 9, 2011 by Norseman82

[MissyP89]

[quote name='brianthephysicist' timestamp='1315527775' post='2302341']

Yea, some of that 'out there' stuff we have to accept without fully understanding in order to move forward in physics.
[/quote]

Let me fix that for you:

"Yea, some of that 'out there' stuff we have to accept without fully understanding in order to move forward in [b][color=#4b0082][s]physics[/s].[/color][/b]"

Should read:

Yea, some of that 'out there' stuff we have to accept without fully understanding in order to move forward in [b][color=#008000]faith.[/color][/b]

[size=2]Or relationships.[/size]

[TheresaThoma]

[quote name='MissyP89' timestamp='1315530780' post='2302360']

Let me fix that for you:

"Yea, some of that 'out there' stuff we have to accept without fully understanding in order to move forward in [b][color=#4b0082][s]physics[/s].[/color][/b]"

Should read:

Yea, some of that 'out there' stuff we have to accept without fully understanding in order to move forward in [b][color=#008000]faith.[/color][/b]

[size=2]Or relationships.[/size]
[/quote]
Lol right!
Also my waves and vibrations class is classical physics and it is driving me crazy. I want to move onto the fun stuff but we are going soooo slowly.

Ok so this is my attempt at trying to show the similarities between the Uncertainty Principle and the Trinity. (For those non physics/math people forgive me for the use of calculus. I will try to explain a bit as a go along)
So according to the Uncertainty Principle you can tell a particle's position (x(t)) OR its velocity (dx/dt) but not both at the same time. Please note non math people both of those are functions of time. Thus when we try to understand God in our time we have to choose do we see one Person of the Trinity or the whole Trinity. In a given situation (a set time) we can see one person of the Trinity this is the position part. For example at Pentecost we can clearly see the Holy Spirit at work. But to see the Trinity as a whole then we must look over a period of time. This is the velocity part since velocity is the time derivative of position. In terms of the particle to measure velocity we have to move it from its position and so we can no longer tell its position. So when we look over time we see all three Persons of the Trinity (OT God the Father, NT Jesus and then later Holy Spirit). To see this though we must move from one situation (position) to another, or change how we are viewing a situation.
But this all has a common constraint [i]time[/i] and since God is outside of time He can be Father, Son and Holy Spirit all at once in any given situation. Since we are constrained by time we can't truly see the wholly united Trinity in every situation.

Please correct me if my physics is wrong. I know this sounds a bit weird but it makes sense in my head. If this doesn't make sense I'll try to explain it better later.

[TheresaThoma]

Oh and I would be able to explain this much better with a white board and lots of hand gestures!

Edited September 9, 2011 by TheresaThoma

[brianthephysicist]

[color=#222222]
[/color]
[color=#222222]
[quote name='MissyP89' timestamp='1315530780' post='2302360'][/color]
[color=#222222]
[/color]
[color=#222222]
Let me fix that for you:[/color]
[color=#222222]
[/color]
[color=#222222]
"Yea, some of that 'out there' stuff we have to accept without fully understanding in order to move forward in [b][color=#4B0082][s]physics[/s].[/color][/b]"[/color]
[color=#222222]
[/color]
[color=#222222]
Should read:[/color]
[color=#222222]
[/color]
[color=#222222]
Yea, some of that 'out there' stuff we have to accept without fully understanding in order to move forward in [b][color=#008000]faith.[/color][/b] [/color]
[color=#222222]
[/color]
[color=#222222]
[size=2]Or relationships.[/size][/color]
[color=#222222]
[/quote][/color]
[color=#222222]
Yup, that's exactly what I was driving at, thank you for clearing it up some more[/color]
[color=#222222]
[/color]
[color=#222222]
[/color]
[color=#222222]
[quote name='TheresaThoma' timestamp='1315541625' post='2302424'][/color]
[color=#222222]
Lol right![/color]
[color=#222222]
Also my waves and vibrations class is classical physics and it is driving me crazy. I want to move onto the fun stuff but we are going soooo slowly.[/color]
[color=#222222]
[/color]
[color=#222222]
Ok so this is my attempt at trying to show the similarities between the Uncertainty Principle and the Trinity. (For those non physics/math people forgive me for the use of calculus. I will try to explain a bit as a go along)[/color]
[color=#222222]
So according to the Uncertainty Principle you can tell a particle's position (x(t)) OR its velocity (dx/dt) but not both at the same time. Please note non math people both of those are functions of time. Thus when we try to understand God in our time we have to choose do we see one Person of the Trinity or the whole Trinity. In a given situation (a set time) we can see one person of the Trinity this is the position part. For example at Pentecost we can clearly see the Holy Spirit at work. But to see the Trinity as a whole then we must look over a period of time. This is the velocity part since velocity is the time derivative of position. In terms of the particle to measure velocity we have to move it from its position and so we can no longer tell its position. So when we look over time we see all three Persons of the Trinity (OT God the Father, NT Jesus and then later Holy Spirit). To see this though we must move from one situation (position) to another, or change how we are viewing a situation.[/color]
[color=#222222]
But this all has a common constraint [i]time[/i] and since God is outside of time He can be Father, Son and Holy Spirit all at once in any given situation. Since we are constrained by time we can't truly see the wholly united Trinity in every situation.[/color]
[color=#222222]
[/color]
[color=#222222]
Please correct me if my physics is wrong. I know this sounds a bit weird but it makes sense in my head. If this doesn't make sense I'll try to explain it better later.[/color]
[color=#222222]
[/quote][/color]

Wow, haven't thought of that before, that's a really cool way of looking at it. God created a universe in which we cannot know everything about physical objects, how can we even have the audacity to assume that we should be able to know anything about nonphysical or spiritual things like God? I'm constantly awed by His grace letting us understand even a part of Him. Thank you for sharing this

[rizz_loves_jesus]

This topic is so amesome. I've also thought about how God can relate to light--what better force of our universe to describe Him than light?

I feel like there are so many things in nature that describe God. It's like we were meant to discover HIm through the universe He created.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Best thread in long time. Meesa happy.

[Mark of the Cross]

Creation explains God, physics explains creation.

[Amppax]

So far above my paygrade (well really my attention span, but their pretty much the same thing with me) but really enjoyable. I'm going to have to show this one to one of my friends, she'll get a kick out of all the numbers (Math & Theology major)