Transsexuals... "he" Or "she"?

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1315261000' post='2300650']
Just because something comes from a monastery or convent, does not make it in line with our teachings.
[/quote]
Of course, plus what I sited was more my church than your church. My position follows my church/my study.

Edited September 5, 2011 by Light and Truth

[Maggyie]

What is the Church's teaching on what to do when a baby is born with both sets of genitalia or no genitals? Most parents just pick a gender and stick with it, but sometimes the child grows up and really feels much more identification with the other gender.

[rizz_loves_jesus]

^^ I'd really like to know the answer to that too. Or with an XXY baby.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1315262753' post='2300668']
What is the Church's teaching on what to do when a baby is born with both sets of genitalia or no genitals? Most parents just pick a gender and stick with it, but sometimes the child grows up and really feels much more identification with the other gender.
[/quote]
i thought in that case it was suggested that parents get their child's chromosomes tested? i'm afraid i can't remember much about that, though.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1315267328' post='2300706']
i thought in that case it was suggested that parents get their child's chromosomes tested? i'm afraid i can't remember much about that, though.
[/quote]

And would a doctor be able to do an ultrasound or something and see if there are "more" of either kind of reproductive system?

[Winchester]

Chaz is a mutilated woman with a mental illness. She was taken advantage of by presumably sane medical personnel.

[CatherineM]

I had two clients who were what they call inter-sexed or indeterminate gender. One had lived her entire life not knowing if she was male or female. She was middle-aged when she came into my office. I sent her for testing, and proper counseling. The other had been born a boy, and had an accident at circumcision. The doctors and parents decided to raise him as a girl, and told him that he was receiving vitamins as a teenager that were actually female hormones. He was 18 when he found out. He was 22ish when I met him. He was messed up, and wanted to sue his parents and doctors. I heard he committed suicide years later. The only thing I know for sure, is that these issues are some of the heaviest crosses a human can carry. I believe the current medical thinking is to leave the kids alone surgically at birth, so long as their ability to urinate isn't impaired, to allow them to be old enough to have a say in their medical treatment. Pastorally, we should approach them with compassion, and treat it as a medical condition. Being born with a chromosomal issue isn't remotely the same as making the decision to mutilate a perfectly healthy body.

[MithLuin]

Generally, it is considered polite to refer to people as they wish to be referred to. There are exceptions (Mormons consider themselves Christians; most other Christians do not, based on their views of the Trinity, redemption, and the expanded canon of scripture). But unless there's a strong reason not to, I'd say there's no harm in going along with a request. It's not like people are going to forget what male and female mean if you address a transgendered person the way they prefer to be addressed.

I mean, it's not like I check to make sure people's biology matches their perceived gender anyway; I just assume that their hairstyle/clothes/physical features are meant to sent a particular message and go with that. For someone who's particularly poor at 'passing', the discrepency is obvious, but again...I can go along with it without making any assumptions about surgery.


Transgendered people are lumped together with homosexuals not because they are dealing with 'the same thing' but because the transgender community is much smaller and has greater success with winning legal battles when they are lumped in with the larger homosexual community. Both groups are fighting for greater recognition and acceptance from society, so they can work together often.


Intersex children (those born with ambiguous genitalia) are often best allowed to grow up at least a bit before doing any permanent surgical alterations. I mean, as long as the urethra is functional, the baby can be allowed to grow and a more informed decision can be made later about what (if anything) should be done. The doctor may be able to determine male/female, but if there's a misunderstanding, this should come out in childhood.


Most chromosomal abnormalities do not result in any ambiguity about the sexual identity of the baby.

XXY is *not* a case of ambiguous sexual identity. XXY or Klinefelter Syndrome produces males. True, the males may have decreased fertility, slightly different hormonal levels, and a higher tendency to develop breast tissue. But they are unmistakably male. XYY will also produce males, though with fewer side effects.

XO (Turner Syndrome) produces females. They will be short, have decreased fertility, and likely have learning difficulties. Trisomy X (XXX) produces females with few side effects.

Swyer syndrome occurs when an XY baby develops into a normal girl. The female will not exhibit any male traits, but will fail to go through puberty (because she lacks ovaries).

There are genetic difficulties that can result in an intersex baby. Generally, it's not a chromosomal disorder, though. To learn more, [url="http://www.isna.org"]www.isna.org[/url]

[Lizzy]

@MithLuin Thanks for the good information.

@Winchester Look, the brain and the body are two different things. If we can have genetic abnormalities that result in children being born with both female and male physical sexual characteristics, it only makes sense that every once in a rare while there is an abnormality that results in a male brain in a female body or vice versa. While science isn't there right now to prove it, I'd be surprised if it weren't possible in the next 50 years.

Now I can't speak for this Chaz person. Who knows if he falls into that category or if he's just confused. It's not our place to judge.

Mother Teresa has written a lot on how to minister to the hungry, first you have to feed them. It's hard to learn about God when you're starving. Transgendered individuals face profound prejudice and alienation on a daily basis from all sectors, including much of the gay community. They are starving for acceptance and love within our society. We need to feed that hunger first, love them, treat them with respect by addressing them as they prefer, and then share the Gospel.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Lizzy' timestamp='1315284295' post='2300966']
@Winchester Look, the brain and the body are two different things. If we can have genetic abnormalities that result in children being born with both female and male physical sexual characteristics, it only makes sense that every once in a rare while there is an abnormality that results in a male brain in a female body or vice versa. While science isn't there right now to prove it, I'd be surprised if it weren't possible in the next 50 years.
[/quote]
Even if it did, from a Catholic perspective, mutilation of the body would be immoral.

[emi77]

This is an excellent thread as its something which as a Catholic community we need to know about and understand in order to act appropriately, respectfully, and with love to those transgender individuals we may encounter in life. It truly must be a great cross to bear.

I actually have a personal experience with this issue. My best friend (who was born a female) has been through a great deal in his personal life. In the 6 years I've known him he has battled issues with his sexuality (he is a Lesbian), issues with drugs, severe bi-polar attacks which ended in attempted suicide and recently he told me of a sexual attack he endured when very young from a trusted adult in his life. About a week ago, he informed me that he was binding his breasts in order to appear more masculine and told me he was changing his gender (though not through surgery yet) and name. He is in counselling and on medication for his bi polar and is actually in a comparatively 'good place' right now (in the last two years he has gotton off drugs, returned to college, getting great grades, made peace with his mother and been a great support to me during my own trials) so I was surpirsed that he had taken such an action.

I asked him why he would put himself through such pain every day by binding his breasts and he told me that it was more bearable than the mental pain he felt being addressed as a women and thought of as female. This shocked me deeply as I had not till then truly realised the full extent and depth of his mental anguish.

I think that in these cases, as Lizzy says, it is our moral duty to provide food, i.e. love and support to such people before even trying to talk of God, dogma and our Catholic truths. In my friend's case, he understands and respects my decision to revert back to Catholicism but would rather we do not discuss ethics as mine reflect what he sees as the Church's hard and unweilding stance towards sexuality. I respect this not just because our friendship is worth more than an argument about ethics but also because it is not my place to judge how he copes with his crosses through his lifestyle (only God can judge).

The best I can do for my friend is love him as much as any friend could love another, and through this I hope to point to and show him God's love and mercy. And of course I pray for him daily (specifically praying that he may find love, peace and happiness and that this will be centered through a true relationship with God.) Is it not true that our salvation ultimately comes through such a relationship with God, for we are all sinners?

I hope I have not offended anyone through this post, and that I represent the church correctly thorugh it. As i say, I am in the reversion process, and sometimes I mess up on church teaching. PAX

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='emi77' timestamp='1315321270' post='2301087'](he is a Lesbian)
[/quote]

[Winchester]

My head is full of floopy.

[emi77]

haha believe me it was a lot harder to get your head around when you've known the person for 6 years!!! I keep forgetting and offending her/him (there I go again)!

[Socrates]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1315268772' post='2300718']
Chaz is a mutilated woman with a mental illness. She was taken advantage of by presumably sane medical personnel.
[/quote]
This.

So-called "sex change" or "gender reassignment" surgery is nothing more than bodily mutilation carried account in accordance to the wishes of a mentally-disordered person (usually to the tune of big stacks of cash, of course).

(I'm referring here to operations done to physically healthy and normal individuals whose biological sex is clear, not to those very rare cases of the various forms of hermaphroditism or ambiguous genitalia, etc. Most "transgendered" persons were physically healthy persons who fathered or mothered children before their operation, and many of whom remain attracted to the opposite sex from before the op.)

The surgery doesn't actually change the sex of the person, merely performs cosmetic surgical and chemical mutilation. No "transgendered" person, no matter how convincing their "remodeling," acquires actual functional genitalia of their "new" sex capable of making babies with a member of the opposite sex.

While there are times when prudence demand that we refer to "transsexual" persons by their chosen "gender," when discussing such matters we should generally refer to such persons by their real (original) gender, rather than help give voice to a lie and delusion.

Also, true charity demands that when dealing with or counseling people who wish to change their sex that we try to steer them toward the truth, rather than cater to their delusion. "Sex change" surgery of a physically healthy person remains a mortal sin.