Ash Wednesday Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 (edited) So there's a lot going on in the news about Chaz Bono being on Dancing With The Stars and whatnot, and the news organizations refer to transsexual Chaz Bono as "he". But I can't help but find it morally questionable referring to Chaz Bono as a "he" when, getting right down to it, Chaz was born a "she", still has the genetic makeup of a woman and all aspects of her "manhood" are purely artificial. So, I guess I'm just wondering. Is it morally wrong to refer to a transsexual born as a woman as a "he"? (or "she" -- in the case of males who go through the operations and insist they are females?) I've never really been sure how one is supposed to address a person in this situation. I also realize that the reasons behind homosexuality are also a topic of heavy debate, but I also can't help but find transsexual ideals confusing in light of the fact many gays and transsexuals are joined in the same movement and yet at the heart of it, both do not seem to share the "born this way" mentality. It's always something I've wondered about and wanted others thoughts on this. Edited September 4, 2011 by Ash Wednesday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 We have an even crazier problem here - a person who was born as a man, had the sex change to a woman and then decided not to be a woman either and stopped taking the female hormones that cause development of breasts, and now wants to be referred to as 'androgynous' (it?). There is a legal case going on about it now because initially the government said s/he could change his/her birth certificate for gender to read 'androgynous' and then changed their legal minds so now s/he is fighting the case in court. Looking at this person is very confusing because there are no external signs anymore apart from a very strange haircut that is sort of short on one side and long on the other... is this what happens when people leave God out of the equation?? All very sad..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 I think it starts with the difference between sex and gender...sex of course being the "biology" and gender being the "socially constructed/informed identity." We shouldn't separate the two, but society does. I do believe that some transsexuals are indeed "born that way," because if anything that gives credence to the teaching that maleness and femaleness actually exist on some level beyond biology and that men and women ARE inherently different. Thus transsexuality would be a disorder, similar to how homosexuality is a dis-order. I'm not sure where the Church would fall on the issue of what pronoun to use, but I do know that it's at least "polite" to refer to someone who is legitimately transsexual as whichever pronoun they prefer...which usually means asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 We are a product of God, hormones, and our environment. We can stuff ourselves with chemicals, rearrange body parts with cosmetic surgery, but the DNA sequences from God are there forever. One way or another we are either more male or more female, there are inherent biological differences. Chaz for whatever reason remains a female with grave emotional issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 this chaz made the wrong decision obviously. although for people like this we should refer to them as how they want to be referred to. i mean look at yourself. would you be offended if someone referred to you as something you did not want to be referred to? you have no hope of converting anyone or showing anyone the error of their ways if you tick them off as soon as you speak to them by referring to them as something they don't want to be referred as. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Having dealt personally with individuals with gender issues, some of the medical variety, not just psychological, I think it best to take people where they are. I make it a point that people not refer to me as Cathy. Close friends often call me Cath, but I believe that it is up to me what I want to be called, and by whom. It's just good manners. I'm not Chaz's or anyone else's judge or confessor, Thank God. I don't intend to watch the show. I'm also grateful that I don't have to explain Chaz to any little kids. Last time I tried having "the talk" with one, I ended up getting a call from the middle school principal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missionseeker Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 [quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1315173175' post='2300215'] Having dealt personally with individuals with gender issues, some of the medical variety, not just psychological, I think it best to take people where they are. I make it a point that people not refer to me as Cathy. Close friends often call me Cath, but I believe that it is up to me what I want to be called, and by whom. It's just good manners. I'm not Chaz's or anyone else's judge or confessor, Thank God. I don't intend to watch the show. I'm also grateful that I don't have to explain Chaz to any little kids. Last time I tried having "the talk" with one, I ended up getting a call from the middle school principal. [/quote] I tend to agree with you (ESPECIALLY the Cathy part... haha. I do not respond to that name at all). I have a couple of friends who, emotionally, spiritually, psycologically struggle with who they are, whether it be gay, transgendered, or other stuff. And I highly doubt the ability of someone to reach out to someone else if they refuse to see them where they are. If this person wants me to call them Kevin instead of Kate, I suppose that I can do that around them, at the least. It's difficult for me, because I don't understand it at all. But I do know that a common thing missing is love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhetoricfemme Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 I have no problem referring to a transgendered person by the pronoun of their choice. The one thing that I really want to ask Chaz Bono, is after going through all of the intense changes that he has, why jeopardize his health by not addressing his obesity issues? I know that's not an easy thing for some people, but somehow I reckon he has to have what it takes to tackle a weight issue. [quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1315146741' post='2300013'] We have an even crazier problem here - a person who was born as a man, had the sex change to a woman and then decided not to be a woman either and stopped taking the female hormones that cause development of breasts, and now wants to be referred to as 'androgynous' (it?). There is a legal case going on about it now because initially the government said s/he could change his/her birth certificate for gender to read 'androgynous' and then changed their legal minds so now s/he is fighting the case in court. Looking at this person is very confusing because there are no external signs anymore apart from a very strange haircut that is sort of short on one side and long on the other... is this what happens when people leave God out of the equation?? All very sad..... [/quote] Wow. Did this person have any mandatory counseling sessions before they were able to go ahead with any hormone therapies or surgeries? This just seems confusing and tragic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted September 4, 2011 Author Share Posted September 4, 2011 (edited) Well, the dancing will help with the weight issue at least for the time being.... a step in the right direction at least in that respect. Edited September 4, 2011 by Ash Wednesday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 [quote name='Ash Wednesday' timestamp='1315180042' post='2300252']a step in the right direction at least in that respect. [/quote] A two-step in the right direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 [quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1315173708' post='2300225'] I tend to agree with you (ESPECIALLY the Cathy part... haha. I do not respond to that name at all). I have a couple of friends who, emotionally, spiritually, psycologically struggle with who they are, whether it be gay, transgendered, or other stuff. And I highly doubt the ability of someone to reach out to someone else if they refuse to see them where they are. If this person wants me to call them Kevin instead of Kate, I suppose that I can do that around them, at the least. It's difficult for me, because I don't understand it at all. But I do know that a common thing missing is love. [/quote] I agree. Some of the old timers may recall that a certain member (who only resurfaces once in a blue moon but is still much loved) struggled with this same issue. I can't speak to the love part of it, but there always seems to be some sort of serious personal issue involved. Not gonna lie, it's an awkward issue for one to have to face ("is it a he or a she?"), but on the flip side I can't imagine it's any easier for those living it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmaD2006 Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 (edited) I dunno. I keep thinking about one thing. Regardless of what our reaction is, the key is love. I agree -- if the person wants to be called he/she, meet the person there. Love the person ... not the sin. I remember back a number of years ago, there was a person at one of the parishes I was at. The person's name was a name that could be either male or female. I finally settled that he was male, but he had feminine characteristics. I couldn't figure out if he was homosexual, or was trying to be transgender. Honestly, all of us (the regulars, particularly those of us who served at the parish) treated him with respect. We treated him with love. One day he came to us to tell us that he was returning to his home country, to die. He had AIDS. And he wanted to die in his country. We said our goodbyes. I have no idea if he has passed or not. All I know is that we gave him love, and that hopefully that helped him at least know that God loved him in spite of the sin that he was caught up in. Edited September 5, 2011 by cmariadiaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 [quote name='IcePrincessKRS' timestamp='1315184945' post='2300280'] I agree. Some of the old timers may recall that a certain member (who only resurfaces once in a blue moon but is still much loved) struggled with this same issue. I can't speak to the love part of it, but there always seems to be some sort of serious personal issue involved. Not gonna lie, it's an awkward issue for one to have to face ("is it a he or a she?"), but on the flip side I can't imagine it's any easier for those living it out. [/quote] Yeah... I miss that particular poster. I must say, though, that when I first came here, it took me a long time to sort out what the backstory on this person was. Finally, one day I just sent a pm and said, "Hey, if you don't mind me asking... what's the deal?" I got a very gracious response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anastasia13 Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 According to some research I was doing on sexuality, including a video on youtube by a member of All Saints Monastery in Canada (Orthodox), transgendered people are one gender in their brain and another in their boder. Genderization occurs in the womb as hormines and such affect the development of the baby. Transgendered people will be out of place with their sex from early in life. (I have heard this also from a transgendered person I was reading about.) In terms of a gender reassignment surgery, this is a reply that I got from the monastery broadcaster. "Transgendered people are not 'altered to become a different sex,' they receive gender harmonisation surgery so that their body conforms to their actual sex." Consequently, I expect there is little wrong with referring to a transgendered person by the gender pronoun of his/her choice unless someone can respond to this to show otherwise. Here is the video that I found from the monastery. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUEh55uM07E&feature=channel_video_title Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 [quote name='Light and Truth' timestamp='1315257630' post='2300624'] According to some research I was doing on sexuality, including a video on youtube by a member of All Saints Monastery in Canada (Orthodox), transgendered people are one gender in their brain and another in their boder. Genderization occurs in the womb as hormines and such affect the development of the baby. Transgendered people will be out of place with their sex from early in life. (I have heard this also from a transgendered person I was reading about.) In terms of a gender reassignment surgery, this is a reply that I got from the monastery broadcaster. "Transgendered people are not 'altered to become a different sex,' they receive gender harmonisation surgery so that their body conforms to their actual sex." Consequently, I expect there is little wrong with referring to a transgendered person by the gender pronoun of his/her choice unless someone can respond to this to show otherwise. Here is the video that I found from the monastery. [/quote] Just because something comes from a monastery or convent, does not make it in line with our teachings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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