Have You Ever Felt Confused?

[Aya Sophia]

TIWW, thanks for sharing this. [url="http://www.humandevelopmentmag.org/articles/fa-winter09b.pdf"]http://www.humandevelopmentmag.org/articles/fa-winter09b.pdf[/url]

Have only glanced at the article but it seems orthodox (which is the first concern of many) and packed with truths about the "nature" on which "grace builds." Very helpful.

[TIWW]

[size=4]Depending on where one lives, and which communities one is interested in, in the Midwest, where I come from, it is com[/size]mon practice to have a potential candidate for religious life undergo psychological screening, meeting with an archdiocesan / diocesan counselor and of course physical assessment. As part of this process, one is encouraged to have a spiritual director, to help navigate this most important decision in ones life. Personally, ( I was about to be with the Poor Clare's), they set me up with the proper avenues to get this process started. This was many years ago, and I know this procedure is still in place, for the most part. I had already done a 2 week live in, and was preparing to do a 3 month one, as part of this process. I know, from speaking with many different monastic communities of men and women here in this area, that this is how they proceed. The philosophy is that before anyone even comes into the community, both sides must know what physical, mental and spiritual issues there are, so that they can be dealt with straight on. I only recently was told that now this specific monastic community will not even accept someone into the program that is overweight, because of emotional and physical problems which that entails. If an overweight person is serious about living the life, they are more than willing to address the causes of this health issue and show good faith in trying to change. As an RN, I was impressed with the concern they had for the health of the whole person, to live a full and rewarding life. PS The other huge issue here, as they reminded me, is the long range cost to the community, which is a realistic concern today as well.

Edited September 27, 2011 by TIWW

[Aya Sophia]

There seem to be differing approaches and schools of thought regarding the use of psychological and personality testing of candidates for religious life (perhaps there's already a thread somewhere on VS on this topic). But then there are tests and there are tests. It appears today's testing can be very rigorous and complicated. It seems candidates are put through the wringer in a way they did not used to be. I was in contact with one community who do not use the testing but did so in one case at an informal suggestion of the candidate's spiritual director (director wasn't saying the testing was necessary - simply thought it would be a helpful tool for the candidate). After the testing, the candidate communicated to the superior of her would-be community that the experience had been "awful" and that she felt as though she had been violated and she now needed time to recover! I suppose her experience may not be typical but to hear such a story does give one pause.

Hard to know where to draw the line between faith and practicality in these matters - when should practicality reign over faith and vice verse?

[TIWW]

Aya Sophia,
I agree and "balance" may be the key here. Where I can really see the need for a more thorough evaluation, is in the enclosed and cloistered communities, where there is little outlet for inner struggles when one is going through them. The atmosphere is so very different in the intimacy of Carmelite and Poor Clare communities for example, where every little variation, nuance, seems to flash like a neon sign. Here is where the live-ins for these enclosed communities especially, are so valuable to all parties concerned.
though many Carmels still do not do it as I understand)

Not that any age is not a "shock" to one who enters an enclosed community, but we are so bombarded in today's world with sensory overload and noise, that the complete lack of "sound" is a shock. I think another factor today is the fact that we live in such an electronic environment with computers, cell phones, radios, ipods, TV's all of the time . . hard to imagine, especially for the younger generation, a life without all this electronic connectedness, and instant gratification of the senses.

Some of this has been hinted at in other threads. Those who have done it more recently than I might be able to offer feedback on how "prepared" they really were for some of these adjustments.

Edited September 27, 2011 by TIWW

[brandelynmarie]

Thank you all for all of this info. It will be a great help to me & I shall be studying it for quite awhile.

[quote name='Aya Sophia' timestamp='1314744360' post='2297649']
If if I were old enough (I'm still a PM child, with this my fourth post) I'd love to start a thread on the nuts and bolts of discernment. In the meantime (until I grow up), here's a link I found a long ago from a Carmelite community website which presents the vocational discernment process in a lucid and simple way. Hope this is helpful . . . [url="http://www.lafayettecarmelites.org/god_calling.php"]http://www.lafayette...god_calling.php[/url]
[/quote]
[quote name='MaterMisericordiae' timestamp='1314754893' post='2297815']

I believe I read that earlier in my discernment in 2009 when I was looking at Carmelite orders. I'm going to bookmark it so I can come back and read it when I need to. I also found this useful and I am thinking about contacting these Sisters again:

[url="http://www.sistersofthemostholysoulofchrist.com/index-5.html"]Spiritual Direction Quotes from the Sisters of the Most Holy Soul of Christ[/url]
[/quote]
[quote name='TIWW' timestamp='1317144620' post='2311060']
There is an excellent article titled:"[u]Intimacy and Healthy Affective Maturity, GUIDELINES FOR FORMATION [/u]", by Kevin McClone, which addresses issues of psychological and spiritual readiness for those considering religious life. As we grow and mature in our personal, relational and spiritual lives, experiencing change and confusion is part of the process. How we look at life, say at the age of 24, is quite different from how we see things at the age of 18. Especially, since we are expected to be taking personal responsibility for ourselves, and breaking away from our family dependence. Getting a job, taking classes, getting some kind of education and training for our personal growth and development, begins to teach us valuable lessons about ourselves, and how we relate to others in our world. An important part of human growth and development, is "experiencing" the various normal stages of development, at the various ages of life. This is why many communities require a period of a minimum of a few years after high school, before one considers the commitment and maturity involved in living religious life.
[/quote]

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='TIWW' timestamp='1317162807' post='2311196']
Aya Sophia,
I agree and "balance" may be the key here. Where I can really see the need for a more thorough evaluation, is in the enclosed and cloistered communities, where there is little outlet for inner struggles when one is going through them. The atmosphere is so very different in the intimacy of Carmelite and Poor Clare communities for example, where every little variation, nuance, seems to flash like a neon sign. Here is where the live-ins for these enclosed communities especially, are so valuable to all parties concerned.
though many Carmels still do not do it as I understand)[/quote]

Actually, I think the ones who really need the psychological evaluation are some of the nuns who already live in the cloister and have been there for 50-60 years. Some of them have 'real issues' that they need to deal with, especially those who had problems after the Vat 2 changes and the constitution constroversies! Some of them just never had any way to deal with the interior conflicts.

This isn't meant with any disrespect - just an observation.

[juchu]

To me it seems as if all this "testing" might also depend on the "culture" and I have never seen it as big here in Europe as it seems to be in the US. Also the whole process seems more "formal" to me from what I read on here - "asking for papers, writing a vocation story" - - I have never really heard of this of the European communities I have discerned with...

I do not say that it does not exist (e.g. NH and faith as example - but I think faith mentioned in her posts that the assesement is something that is supposed to help her in the future) From what I read on here it seems as if it is some kind of "sorting out ppl" .....

From my community it is based on "daily" life that they get their "impression" - - I have had several live ins (due to still completing university more than others might have... when I come during my holidy, I go "in", instead of staying with the volunteers or guests) and was accompanied by the NM during this time. By our weekly or more often talks she got an impression of who I am. But also from how I just live the life, interact with the other sisters, etc.

This does not mean that they do not appreciate therapy - some sisters have gone through councelling because things from the past started to appear during novitiate. But maybe it also has to do with the public health system here.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='juchu' timestamp='1317220094' post='2311660']
To me it seems as if all this "testing" might also depend on the "culture" and I have never seen it as big here in Europe as it seems to be in the US. Also the whole process seems more "formal" to me from what I read on here - "asking for papers, writing a vocation story" - - I have never really heard of this of the European communities I have discerned with...

I do not say that it does not exist (e.g. NH and faith as example - but I think faith mentioned in her posts that the assesement is something that is supposed to help her in the future) From what I read on here it seems as if it is some kind of "sorting out ppl" .....

From my community it is based on "daily" life that they get their "impression" - - I have had several live ins (due to still completing university more than others might have... when I come during my holidy, I go "in", instead of staying with the volunteers or guests) and was accompanied by the NM during this time. By our weekly or more often talks she got an impression of who I am. But also from how I just live the life, interact with the other sisters, etc.

This does not mean that they do not appreciate therapy - some sisters have gone through councelling because things from the past started to appear during novitiate. But maybe it also has to do with the public health system here.
[/quote]


It's definitely a cultural thing - I have had plenty of psychological tests in the US for jobs and other things but in four religious communities in the UK and Canada and Australia, I never once had to do one.

[TIWW]

[size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]This is yet another great thing about VS. We see the [/font][/size]cultural / attitudinal differences from the US, to Europe and Australia. Certainly, there is a huge difference in the US after the 1960's. My personal experience is with 2 different communities, one an active one straight out of High School, and the other the Poor Clare's in my early 30's. In the 60's, there was no screening per say, in any community. What Religious Communites had learned however, was that there were many people in religious life, who never should have been there, for many kinds of reason. What they also learned, was that once someone was there, even if they went through the proper channels ( Vatican etc), no matter how destructive that person was to himself or his community, they were there for life. I can bring up many examples, but the one that easily comes to mind are those who committed sexual abuse against community members or others in their charge. Devastating consequences to this day. Also accepting those who were mentally ill. In active communities, they did not cause the havoc they did in enclosed communities. I do not want to hijack this thread, but I do think there is more of an awareness about the importance of this because of the negative spiritual, physical, emotional and financial consequences. I am personal friends with folks in Benedictine and other communities of men and women, who are in positions of authority, whose community and personal experiences have been affected by these issues.

[Guest hermanita]

Hola! This is my first post. I found a home in Carmelite spirituality which is the tradition of the community I feel called to and also love Salesian spirituality which I learned in High school.

[Lisa]

[quote name='hermanita' timestamp='1318886973' post='2322874']
Hola! This is my first post. I found a home in Carmelite spirituality which is the tradition of the community I feel called to and also love Salesian spirituality which I learned in High school.
[/quote]

Hola!!!! Bienvenida

[franciscanheart]

Yup.

[NovemberFourth]

I used to think "confusion" was my middle name. I still have confused days now. But I expected that as the Novitiate is a time of continuing discernment. To be honest I think I will probably continue to discern - and probably be confused now and again, to some degree - at least up to final vows and probably even beyond that.

Edited October 20, 2011 by NovemberFourth

[Queen'sDaughter]

I get confused all the time! I found that a good way to cope with confusion is to remind myself that my [i]feelings, [/i]helpful or wonderful or terrible as they may be, have nothing to do with [i]God's Will[/i]. So I have decided, after much prayer, that I will continue to walk the path I am on, regardless of how my feelings may change, until God tells me to get lost and go somewhere else!

This attitude really is a blessing, as I have found that this simple determination to let God handle it has enabled me remain at piece no matter what storms are thrown at me.

Also remember that the devil is a source of confusion, so be on the look out for this stinky little stinker. (Take THAT stupid one).

(Okay, I do get kicks out of calling the devil names ).

[InPersonaChriste]

[quote name='Queen'sDaughter' timestamp='1320194449' post='2330011']
I get confused all the time! I found that a good way to cope with confusion is to remind myself that my [i]feelings, [/i]helpful or wonderful or terrible as they may be, have nothing to do with [i]God's Will[/i]. So I have decided, after much prayer, that I will continue to walk the path I am on, regardless of how my feelings may change, until God tells me to get lost and go somewhere else!

This attitude really is a blessing, as I have found that this simple determination to let God handle it has enabled me remain at piece no matter what storms are thrown at me.

Also remember that the devil is a source of confusion, so be on the look out for this stinky little stinker. (Take THAT stupid one).

(Okay, I do get kicks out of calling the devil names ).
[/quote]


This made me laugh.. Especially when you called the devil a little stinker