Time To Become A Nun Changed Since St. Therese

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='DameAgnes' timestamp='1314722809' post='2297534']
Interesting discussion. I once talked to a contemplative nun about these newer, longer terms and she said they never bothered her, "I entered with the expectation that if God willed it, I would be here for the rest of my life, so it didn't really matter how long it took to become professed. The life is still lived from day to day."

I like that.

Still, are these lengths of time also true for men? Do most of them go through a whole year of postulancy?

Nunsense brought up a good point about support when one is sent away. I recently learned that a community order sent away two separate sisters who had been in the community for 8 & 9 years, respectively, and believed they'd be professing final vows. Suddenly, no, they were sent away, for different reasons. I have to wonder: how do you use this "bride of Christ" language so freely, and tell your sisters in formation that they are espoused to Christ, and wearing a lifelong wedding gown, only to say, after 8-9 years, "well, but not in your case. We've decided that you are not a bride of Christ, after all." It seems cruel, to me. After so many years? If they'd had doubts about the sister, why allow her to persist only to let her go at the 11th hour? How does that affect the sister's spirit? How does that affect the younger sisters coming up? Do they suddenly wonder, "so, are we Brides of Christ or not?"
[/quote]

It truly shocks me that these kind of situations can occur in religious life where Charity and care and concern for all regardless should be uppermost. I know that this is the ideal, but where the ideal is missed, the ideal still needs to be addressed. The nun with whom I had contact had entered pre V2 and could not cope with all the changes it seems and had a serious breakdown. She had been in religious life for over 20 years and was abandoned by her community and was a lost and lonely, very paranoid, woman.

[BarbTherese]

[u][b]Quoting nunsense[/b][/u]

[quote]
I'm with you here Barb. Not everything has changed - it all depends on the superior and the community involved. At some communities, they still won't even let you say goodbye to the other sisters. At other communities, they are incredibly kind and sensitive and let all the goodbyes happen and ongoing communication be maintained, at least with the Prioress, if not with all of the sisters (each community is different).[/quote]
Now and then we get ont he same wavelength, nunsense - and it is a warm feeling when we do! Truly great to see you around again and with your experience and open hearted honesty. I really have much admiration for you for hanging in there despite all the problems you have had. The community I left shortly after V2 was a dreadful place. I found it hard to believe that the bulk of the Sisters actually took notice of The Gospel. I decided to leave and my novice mistress said (her final words to me) "You are abandoning your vocation" - well in my tender years then, that statement gave me h*ll and I suffered for years becuase of it and by the time I met my priest theologian who undertook my direction, I was married and that was in a mess. I had a breakdown and my then husband divorced me and my children were taken from me. Then years of homelessness, illness and poverty. Then came the annulment and with me still labouring after all those years with the tremendous guilt of having abandoned my vocation and me thinking the absolute mess I was in was God's Just Punishment in every way. It took Father quite a few years to untangle me from that one short sentence and 'parting shot' by my novice mistress.

[quote]
I think it hurts whether you are asked to leave or if you choose to leave, but I do have to say that the feeling of being rejected by God is immense when one is happy in the community but then receives the shock of being told that they don't fit in and must leave immediately without any goodbyes. I don't know that I will ever totally recover from that experience, but I at least hope that it has made my faith stronger and my compassion deeper. I can't imagine the pain of a sister who has nearly reached final profession but been told to leave... I knew one sister that this happened to, but who was allowed to re-renter at a later date and was finally professed, but only after 17 years of trying!!! Talk about perseverence![/quote]
I think I am quoting you, when I say "God writes straight, often with crooked lines". When it was all said and done, despite all my lost and dreadful years, those years did make me a far better person than previously for sure. My Faith was strong for the years of struggling to hold on to it despite the fact that I felt God did not want me - only to punish me. And my understanding and compassion really grew and mainly I think through contact with fellow psychiatric patients. They can be an heroic bunch who somehow retain a sense of the funny and absurd often.
Many years later and not until I left the second community did I understand that God was not rejecting me - rather saying as it were "Not here".
[quote]
On two occasions when I left, I had no other options... the abuse was simply too great to bear and not being St Therese, I couldn't endure it any longer. The funny thing is though, at two communities, I have maintained an ongoing contact with them, and am kept informed of things like clothings and professions and elections. At one, we communicate sporadically, only when something important has happened. At one of the communities, a dear and holy sister was recently elected Prioress and I was so happy to hear it because I felt that at last things could start to change there, and that the Holy Spirit is breathing into that community now. There is one community that I have never written to since I left, and will never do so... the abuse was too great and I was offered no support or help. I pray for them every day, but as I don't maintain contact, I don't know if things have changed or will ever change there. Memories of that experience are so bad that I never even think about it - it is almost as if it never happened to me - a form of denial!
[/quote]
You are a better person than me, nunsense. I want no contact at all anymore with either of my former communities and have firmly closed the door on that part of my life with a full stop, end of chapter. New chapter. That was the only way for me that I could get away from the pain and suffering of memories.
Were I to consider entering again which is totally out of the question, I would be preparing myself in advance for if I decided to leave or they decided I should leave - not that one can completely prepare oneself, but at least it would not be a total shock out the blue . . . nor any 'parting shots'. I would have worked out for myself a whole theology of me deciding to leave, or them telling me to leave.

[quote]
The thing is that throughout the Church, there is good and bad, holiness and evil... but that's because God chose human beings and not angels to be His Church. I have only love and concern for the Church, and for those trying to live religious life, but I no longer have romantic and idealistic ideas about what is involved in the life or the people. I have known near saints, and dreadful bullies, humble servants, and ambitious b*tches (pardon the language). God has been very good in giving me so much experience and my life isn't over yet.[/quote]
Me too. I have known dreadful bullies and ambitious whatsits - and yes the very humble saintly servants too suffering in the minority by far - and my personal experience in religious life. Yes, we are still a Church in formation and room for all on this ere ship as we undergo that formation. I love The Church to abandon despite all that happened to me too - and like you, no more romantic notions, although I think I am probably still something of the idealist, while recognizing that we dont often attain the ideal, but I feel that the ideal must still be put forward and strived for no matter how many times we fail it.
I never expected to be completely sane again - and the really sudden arrival of sanity took everyone aback including my psychiatrist and myself. God has been outstandingly good to me too - even in the dreadful years unknowingly I was in formation. And as you say, life is not finished yet, hence nor is God in forming us.
[quote]
The length of time it takes to become professed isn't the main issue here, because I don't think any amount of time is going to solve all the problems in religious life... I have known nuns of more than 60 years in the life, and also one sister who had to leave to care for her mother and then came back 20 years later to live as an extern! Every sister's story is different because everyone is an individual. All we can pray is that ceach ommunity tries to respond to the guidance of the Holy Spirit in everything it does.[/quote]

Amen! Amen! to your last sentence, nunsense!
[quote]
And for me, these days, the main thing is to try to be aware of God's plans more than my own. This takes a little practice, but I am getting better at it, I think. Being a stubborn type, perhaps He has just had to be a little firmer with me than He might have to be with someone else. But isn't He just too wonderful for words? And that's what it's all about in the end, or at least it should be, in my opinion. After all, in heaven, we will spend all our time loving Him.... now is just a good time to practice [/quote]

I have almost seen you grow in the time I have known you on this site and it is a joy to behold - if it has been at times painful for you. Remember as children what Mum used to call our "growing pains" - every tummy ache and headache I had trying to get out of school was written off by Mum as "growing pains" - some truth in this pain of growing I think. If I am in pain, then it is the pain of the challenge to grow and only growth eliminates the pain.
I must admit that if I try to reflect on Heaven, my mind just empties out of everything and anything and I cannot reflect at all, so I concentrate on doing the best I can here on earth and leave Heaven to Heaven. I loved that movie "Heaven can wait, Mr. Allison" It was with Deborah Kerr and Robert Mitchum, it made a great impact on me in that it stunned me. I was only about 12yrs old at the time and back then could not understand why I was so stunned. Many many years later and in probably my forties, I understood the message.

God bless, nunsense and ever hold you very close as He does - Barb

I'm having dreadful problems editing - apologies

Edited August 31, 2011 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

I'm not going to try to edit in case I make another mess!
Oh the wonders of Google - the movie with Deborah Kerr and Robert Mitchum was a 1957 movie titled "Heaven Knows, Mr Allison" - although the sentence "Heaven can wait, Mr Allison" is uttered by Sister Angela (Deborah Kerr) and was the sentence and a particular scene that stunned me until years later I was able to put the message to me together. It was good to know that I can still see it, which I really would like to do again. It was nominated for two oscars I think it was. Excellent movie! John Huston director and apparently regarded it as one of his best.
Not on topic! But then God often writes straight with crooked lines, dare I say it!

[Chiquitunga]

Okay, I've been meaning to post something I read a while ago in this thread forever, and the recent discussion on temporary profession has made me remember it

I am reading about this incredibly beautiful Carmelite, Sr. Marie-Angélique of Jesus I heard about this book on her (biography, autobiography & letters) [i][url="http://louangedesagloire.blogspot.com/2010/04/coming-soon-flame-of-joy.html"]Flame of Joy[/url] [/i]from our LaudemGloriae here (thank you!!) It is really hard to find, but I stumbled upon it on amazon earlier this year for a really low price! If you're really interested in reading it though, you might ask the [url="http://aquerofoundation.com/id19.html"]Carmel of Maria Regina in Eugene, OR[/url] who translated and published it from the French (did the same for the Little Arab book which is still on their book list there)

Well anyway, the tiny passage and note I wanted to share here: [i][b]"The first year of novitiate having passed, Sister Marie-Angélique pronounced her Vows August 9, 1915."[/b][/i]

(note on bottom [i][b]"Simple, perpetual Vows according to the custom in force up to that time. But Marie-Angélique was the last in the Pontoise Carmel to enjoy this privilege. Shortly afterward, Canon Law prescribed three years of temporary Vows before perpetual profession."[/b][/i])

Anyway, I thought that was interesting. Wow, to make your final profession after one year in the novitiate!

Also, regarding them not having solemn vows at that time .. I believe that had something to do with the French Revolution, and I do not believe St. Therese was able to take solemn vows either. Anyone know more about this off hand? I'd have to look it up. But I do remember reading in [i]A Few Lines To Tell You[/i] that it was the Apostolic Constitution [i]Sponsa Christi[/i] that restored solemn vows to nuns who had them previously, and that Carmels throughout the world then petitioned to have them. I am reading it now, all the final professed in Iron Mountain made their Solemn Profession together September 14, 1953. Very interesting ..

[truthfinder]

[quote name='Chiquitunga' timestamp='1348556963' post='2486411']
I do not believe St. Therese was able to take solemn vows either. Anyone know more about this off hand?
[/quote]

You might be right, but I also think it had to do with her having two sisters in Carmel before her. There were only to be two blood sisters of any one family in a convent lest a whole family of sisters enter and 'take-over'. By taking simple perpetual vows, at least at this time, she was unable to be a voting member of the Chapter. So she was 'above' a lay sister but 'below' a full solemn vowed choir nun. In essence, as the one book put it, a black veiled permanent novice.

[DiscerningCatholic]

[quote name='FutureSister2009' timestamp='1314633948' post='2296894']
See this is why I want to enter now at 20 so maybe by the time I make my final vows I'll be like 26 or 27. But I guess I'll be like 29-30-ish
[/quote]

I feel ya. That's one reason I would want to enter sooner rather than later...but whenever God wants!!!! Scary sentiment.

Edited September 25, 2012 by DiscerningCatholic

[mantellata]

Replying to the OP...

Formation takes longer....

.... in some cases.... dare I say it.... I think formation is [u]better[/u] than in some cases what it was in St. Therese's day.

course I'm comparing books to lived experience...

So my point is that today - there is a learning curve - many young women though full of faith need some "catching up" in terms of catechism, theology and liturgical studies. Culturally, emotionally and psychologically I feel that it is more of a shift today to enter into the world of the cloister / religious life, than it was in Therese's day.

Post Vatican II.... many Sisters left. One of the common reasons for being dispensed from vows was that they didn't know what they were really getting into, what it really meant to make vows, what they would really be giving up. Well if there is that kind of learning curve today, it only makes sense that the Church would require that even more formation be offered.

I totally understand the impatience.... I'm just saying it's worth it for what you reap. It's possible to embrace your consecration with an even and ever deeper way.... totally worth it.

[maximillion]

It is true that I had little idea 'what I was getting into' when I entered the cloister. There were no live-ins back then, I stayed with the community in the guest house for a fortnight, ate my meals alone served by the Sr Extern, and joined the sisters for parts of the liturgy on the public side of the grille. My first sojourn into the enclosure was when I went to petition R Mother to enter. This took place the day before I was due to leave the community. The response came a week later and I handed in my notice at work.

There was and I think there probably still is, a bit of a culture shock when you enter. I remember hearing a Nashie on one of their vids saying how after a couple of weeks after her entry she felt like she could do with a day lounging on the sofa, and it was a shock when she realised she would probably never spend a day lounging on the sofa ever again!

However, I am not sure I agree that this is one of the main reasons we left the convent in our droves post V2. I had been in Perpetual Vows for seven years when I asked for exclaustration. I think after fourteen years in the enclosure I pretty much knew what the life was like!
V2 brought it's own difficulties, and my community was not the only one who 'threw the baby out with the bath water' in the Renewal process. It was the drastic changes and the way they were rushed in that threw me off balance and made me question. I am not saying this happened everywhere, but I think since there has been a return to some of those older values and traditions, we are seeing an upsurge in vocations.
We can be very spiritual and say that the Holy Spirit was working even in the turmoil of that time, and I am sure He was, it was not always possible to see it back then.
So no, I can't agree that we left because we didn't know what we were getting into..................

[cmaD2006]

Just an FYI in case those who just posted didn't notice ... this is an older thread that goes back more than a year.

[mantellata]

[quote name='maximillion' timestamp='1348680254' post='2486954']
So no, I can't agree that we left because we didn't know what we were getting into..................
[/quote]

I should probably clarify... Certainly there have to be as many reasons as there are people for decisions to leave... I was simply relating what was what I knew to be reasons that some sisters left based on the research done by sociologists and then incidental material from the experience related by sisters who went through the though times. I certainly hope I didn't offend though with my previous post.


Also I did not notice how long ago the thread was from.....perhaps a hiccup in phatmass?

[emmaberry]

[quote name='maximillion' timestamp='1348680254' post='2486954']
It is true that I had little idea 'what I was getting into' when I entered the cloister. There were no live-ins back then, I stayed with the community in the guest house for a fortnight, ate my meals alone served by the Sr Extern, and joined the sisters for parts of the liturgy on the public side of the grille. My first sojourn into the enclosure was when I went to petition R Mother to enter. This took place the day before I was due to leave the community. The response came a week later and I handed in my notice at work.

There was and I think there probably still is, a bit of a culture shock when you enter. I remember hearing a Nashie on one of their vids saying how after a couple of weeks after her entry she felt like she could do with a day lounging on the sofa, and it was a shock when she realised she would probably never spend a day lounging on the sofa ever again!

However, I am not sure I agree that this is one of the main reasons we left the convent in our droves post V2. I had been in Perpetual Vows for seven years when I asked for exclaustration. I think after fourteen years in the enclosure I pretty much knew what the life was like!
V2 brought it's own difficulties, and my community was not the only one who 'threw the baby out with the bath water' in the Renewal process. It was the drastic changes and the way they were rushed in that threw me off balance and made me question. I am not saying this happened everywhere, but I think since there has been a return to some of those older values and traditions, we are seeing an upsurge in vocations.
We can be very spiritual and say that the Holy Spirit was working even in the turmoil of that time, and I am sure He was, it was not always possible to see it back then.
So no, I can't agree that we left because we didn't know what we were getting into..................
[/quote]

Thanks for sharing, maximillion. I can only imagine the turmoil and desperation many religious, especially contemplative nuns, must have felt in the hectic change after Vatican 2. This leads me to a question: I know solemn vows are for life, through good and bad like the vows of marriage, but is there a mutually understood 'breaking' point at which the vows need not be honored within most communities? One thing that could happen with a Poor Clare community where the Abbess is the highest authority and directly accountable to St. Clare is corruption. What happens if an Abbess becomes corrupt and heterodox? Is this something that Sisters in solemn vows have thought about and are prepared to stay with the community for?

It may seem silly to think of these extreme situations, but I can't assume everything will be fine and dandy when so many left in droves after the Council, and I know all these Sisters weren't expecting their orders to change so radically when they first entered. If I were contemplating marriage with someone, I would envision 'worst case scenarios' too, to make sure I was prepared for everything I would be vowing to this person: for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health. Maybe this is my pessimistic/over-thinking side showing through..

I'd love to hear other's thoughts and opinions regarding such 'change' and the intent of solemn vows concerning this.

Edited September 27, 2012 by emmaberry

[Maggyie]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1348710620' post='2487142']
Thanks for sharing, maximillion. I can only imagine the turmoil and desperation many religious, especially contemplative nuns, must have felt in the hectic change after Vatican 2. This leads me to a question: I know solemn vows are for life, through good and bad like the vows of marriage, but is there a mutually understood 'breaking' point at which the vows need not be honored within most communities? One thing that could happen with a Poor Clare community where the Abbess is the highest authority and directly accountable to St. Clare is corruption. What happens if an Abbess becomes corrupt and heterodox? Is this something that Sisters in solemn vows have thought about and are prepared to stay with the community for?

It may seem silly to think of these extreme situations, but I can't assume everything will be fine and dandy when so many left in droves after the Council, and I know all these Sisters weren't expecting their orders to change so radically when they first entered. If I were contemplating marriage with someone, I would envision 'worst case scenarios' too, to make sure I was prepared for everything I would be vowing to this person: for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health. Maybe this is my pessimistic/over-thinking side showing through..

I'd love to hear other's thoughts and opinions regarding such 'change' and the intent of solemn vows concerning this.
[/quote]

Religious vows, even solemn vows, are unlike marriage, in that they are NOT "undoable." In certain circumstances they can and have been dispensed, by the proper authorities. Certainly the extreme possibilities you mention would fall under that heading! I know a woman who left a cloistered order after solemn profession and it was due to damaging and unhealthy leadership. The vows are not a suicide pact as it were... even in marriage, sometimes the Church acknowledges it's best for husband and wife to live apart or even obtain a civil divorce, though they remain married in the eyes of God.

[Totally Franciscan]

Oh my goodness, Emmaberry, I have first hand knowledge of my superior not corrupt, but mentally ill; however, I think the outcome was the same. Eventually, the entire community was disbanded by the bishop due to decisions she made that took the entire cloistered community off track, so to speak. I will not go into details, but I would like to reply about your sentence, "Is this something that Sisters in solemn vows have thought about and are prepared to stay with the community for?" From personal knowledge of living with these nuns going through this type of horror, I can say without a shadow of doubt that their response was to obey, let whatever happens happen. They went on with their religious lives and stayed the course to the end while all around them chaos ensued. I never heard them question her or her decisions. After all, the superior is the voice of God. At the end, the bishop gave the nuns choices. One was to have their solemn vows dispensed and return to lay life (most chose this option). Those under solemn vows who did not want their vows dispensed, the bishop sold all the assets of the community, and the diocese would take care of them until death living in a Catholic nursing home. Those in private vows, those vows were canceled by the bishop. I doubt whether any nun thinks in terms of this kind of thing happening, but it is always a possibility.

[maximillion]

Agree with the above posters. Of course none of us wants to think about worse case scenarios in advance, but I think you are only being prudent Emmaberry, to think about what you may do in such a situation.

Most of the nuns in my community did as TF speaks of above....obeyed. I think it is well written about that unless one is being instructed to deliberately harm self or others, this is the correct spiritual attitude to take. One fulfils ones Vows, no question.
The changes post V2 were not the only thing that affected me. I was caught between a traditionalist Jesuit and a modernist Franciscan. These two holy men waged a personal battle for academic, theological supremacy through me (they were both appointed as my personal tutors). This was very unfortunate for me and when I became very anxious and my health started to suffer....I made my petition.

I always considered my Vows to be Perpetual and have maintained them to the best of my ability in the world. I am obedient to the Church and my local pastor, I live quietly, having minimal contact with the outside (no newspapers, very careful choice of TV, limited no of friends and activities etc), and share through tithing a proportion of my income with those in need. This last is nothing like Holy Poverty, sadly. I have also remained chaste and celibate. This is nothing even approaching a cloistered, poor and obedient life, and I am saddened now only by my own dim witted-ness in not having applied for entrance to some other community once having left my own. I just didn't think I would ever be accepted.

I think this is another difference between then and now, as was noted in another thread, people do discern out then re-enter somewhere else. I don't think this was done in my time, or if it was, I never heard of it.

The internet has brought many changes, not least the possibility of finding out about more communities, in more detail - even those that have no web-site are talked about on VS (Praise HIM), and there are so many generous folks who share their stories and information, offer to find things out etc, that yes, much more is known pre-entrance..........but it is still a culture shock!

[emmaberry]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1348713242' post='2487163']
Religious vows, even solemn vows, are unlike marriage, in that they are NOT "undoable." In certain circumstances they can and have been dispensed, by the proper authorities. Certainly the extreme possibilities you mention would fall under that heading! I know a woman who left a cloistered order after solemn profession and it was due to damaging and unhealthy leadership. The vows are not a suicide pact as it were... even in marriage, sometimes the Church acknowledges it's best for husband and wife to live apart or even obtain a civil divorce, though they remain married in the eyes of God.
[/quote]
[quote name='Totally Franciscan' timestamp='1348713475' post='2487166']
Oh my goodness, Emmaberry, I have first hand knowledge of my superior not corrupt, but mentally ill; however, I think the outcome was the same. Eventually, the entire community was disbanded by the bishop due to decisions she made that took the entire cloistered community off track, so to speak. I will not go into details, but I would like to reply about your sentence, "Is this something that Sisters in solemn vows have thought about and are prepared to stay with the community for?" From personal knowledge of living with these nuns going through this type of horror, I can say without a shadow of doubt that their response was to obey, let whatever happens happen. They went on with their religious lives and stayed the course to the end while all around them chaos ensued. I never heard them question her or her decisions. After all, the superior is the voice of God. At the end, the bishop gave the nuns choices. One was to have their solemn vows dispensed and return to lay life (most chose this option). Those under solemn vows who did not want their vows dispensed, the bishop sold all the assets of the community, and the diocese would take care of them until death living in a Catholic nursing home. Those in private vows, those vows were canceled by the bishop. I doubt whether any nun thinks in terms of this kind of thing happening, but it is always a possibility.
[/quote]
[quote name='maximillion' timestamp='1348766080' post='2487264']
Agree with the above posters. Of course none of us wants to think about worse case scenarios in advance, but I think you are only being prudent Emmaberry, to think about what you may do in such a situation.

Most of the nuns in my community did as TF speaks of above....obeyed. I think it is well written about that unless one is being instructed to deliberately harm self or others, this is the correct spiritual attitude to take. One fulfils ones Vows, no question.
The changes post V2 were not the only thing that affected me. I was caught between a traditionalist Jesuit and a modernist Franciscan. These two holy men waged a personal battle for academic, theological supremacy through me (they were both appointed as my personal tutors). This was very unfortunate for me and when I became very anxious and my health started to suffer....I made my petition.

I always considered my Vows to be Perpetual and have maintained them to the best of my ability in the world. I am obedient to the Church and my local pastor, I live quietly, having minimal contact with the outside (no newspapers, very careful choice of TV, limited no of friends and activities etc), and share through tithing a proportion of my income with those in need. This last is nothing like Holy Poverty, sadly. I have also remained chaste and celibate. This is nothing even approaching a cloistered, poor and obedient life, and I am saddened now only by my own dim witted-ness in not having applied for entrance to some other community once having left my own. I just didn't think I would ever be accepted.

I think this is another difference between then and now, as was noted in another thread, people do discern out then re-enter somewhere else. I don't think this was done in my time, or if it was, I never heard of it.

The internet has brought many changes, not least the possibility of finding out about more communities, in more detail - even those that have no web-site are talked about on VS (Praise HIM), and there are so many generous folks who share their stories and information, offer to find things out etc, that yes, much more is known pre-entrance..........but it is still a culture shock!
[/quote]

Thank you so much for the replies! I am glad that the Church has guidelines for solemnly professed Sisters if things go sour...not that things [i]will[/i] go sour, but it is good for peace of mind, much like Maggie's example of separation in marriage, which would give me peace of mind if myself or a friend were marrying-that if there was rampant infidelity, abuse, or some other horrible change in the marriage, the Church does not say, "Too bad, you made vows."