Time To Become A Nun Changed Since St. Therese

[let_go_let_God]

[quote name='LuxChristi' timestamp='1314632350' post='2296893']

For instance, if my math is correct, Therese Martin (not yet St. Therese) entered Carmel on April 9, 1888, at the age of 15. On January 10, 1889, Therese entered the novitiate, and made her solemn vows as a religious on September 24, 1890, at the age of 17. Total time from entrance to full profession (her wedding day): 2 years and 5 months (and that was because they extended her postulancy since she was so young).


[/quote]


Also I was just lurking but Therese Martin is a Canonized Saint. St. Therese of Lisieux was Canonized on May 17, 1925.

God bless-
LGLG

[juchu]

Actually I agree with faithcecilia - - Although my hearts desire really is to be bound to God completly and I would to be with my community now, I have confidence that they have their reasons for doing formation the way they do.

Having waited - when I hopefully finish grad school at the beginning of next year - 1,5 years being "sure" that it is this specific community I learned a little to trust. A year ago I was ready to drop school and just enter but my novice mistress - very wise woman - counceled me to continue. She said that she wanted me to be there totally free - and that I need to think of how I reach this freedom. I could come and drop school, they would welcome me. But maybe I would be "more free" having actually completed school.

So I decided that I would continue.

In my community it is quite long until your life long commitment, summing up to 8-9 years. But all I can do is trust. Although I think that a sister leaving that has already taken vows is really something that hurts the entire body of the community. Being one in Christ... in that specific community... and then somebody leaving who commited to be part of that community...

After high school I did a social service year with an apostolic congregation, I lived in one of their mission houses. During that time one of the sisters I lived with decided to leave. She had taken final vows three years earlier. It was hurtful for our local community and for the entire congregation.

The community I am entering has had about 30 postulants enter the last 10 years. 10 stayed. Most left quite early during postulancy or during the first years of novitiate (we have a three year novitiate + 10-12 months postulancy). But only one final professed sister has left as I am aware of during the last 30 years. So in respect of the union of the community I definetly prefer to obey and accept what my community has set as they have fund this long way to be working.

I think I "know" my community quite well, having lived most parts of the liturgical season (Lent, Easter, Christmas, ordinary time...) with them. But only always during "live-ins" that lasted at maximum 8 weeks... So I need to get the "normal" day to day routine... Totally ordinary time... I need to get "bored", not "exited" to get to know something "new"... I need ordinary life in order to decide if I want to start the novitiate. And that is what for me makes a year long postulancy useful.

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='LuxChristi' timestamp='1314638735' post='2296957']
Nunsense - you make a valid point about the ease with which communities can dismiss an aspirant -- that's an underlying part of my question, because if God created women with what appears to be a basic desire for security and commitment --- is there a point where adding steps or years to the process can actually be harmful rather than helpful? Does the extension actually provide some fuel for the commitment problem on the side of the community or on the side of the woman?
[/quote]

The other important point that nunsense made was aftercare for those who are dismissed from or asked to leave a community. Only one prioress I have spoken with (not that I have spoken with many) expressed concern for those who have been asked to leave and how to assist them with feelings of rejection and other negative type feelings. I think that if a community accepts a person into that community and then asks them to leave, that they really do have a [u]duty[/u] to assist wherever possible and if necessary in that person adjusting back into secular life spiritually, emotionally and psychologically. I did meet one ex religious who had had a nervous breakdown and finally was asked to leave the community and she was still, when I met her a couple of years later, a very ill person, but that community then completely abandoned her and cut off all contact. I am not saying that this is the norm - frankly I would not know - but I would like to see something in Canon Law about those who are dismissed after a certain period or level of acceptance into a community and the duty of loving fraternal care in every way possible by the community and as their duty.

[Orans]

I think that we hardly can overemphasize the big cultural, social, sociological, and psychological changes that have happened in the last 100 years, which greatly affect religious life and religious life candidates.

In the past, for many centuries, those entering religious life had one year of novitiate and then made solemn vows for life without more options for testing the waters. And people remained in their monasteries for life with practically no other choice, whether they had a vocation or not. Of course not all religious were exemplar and faithful in their personal lives but they went along with the life of the community, which was not that different from the life of ordinary lay folks -just take away TV and other gadgets, constant travel, central heat in your home, light in the streets, the mall a few blocks away from your house, food galore, refrigerator to keep food for long periods, etc. etc, etc. People had to work HARD just to survive and summer was not vacation time but decisive opportunity to prepare to get through the winter. Doing it in a monastery was not that different and had great perks, or simply was the one of two options -childbearing was not that easy or attractive for meany eaither.

In our day the gap -and the jump- from life in society to the culture of a religious community is by far much greater than it was in the past. People knew and practiced the basics of prayer, the sacraments etc while at home. Now when candidates start living in a community they need to be imbued of a different culture and that takes time, a lot of time because you need to internalize and make free personal choices of commitment to a demanding and counter cultural lifestyle while the actual possibility of abandoning the religious life remains a real possibility before and after perpetual and solemn vows. Just think of all the baggage that we have as people of the 21st century about "human rights" and "my own voice", and my opinion, and my way of seeing and doing things, etc. etc. This was not the universal way 100 years ago when, as an example, women could not have a say or a vote in society or in political decisions.

The Church has been extending the times and stages of the process of becoming a full fledged and mature religious. Thus, instead of direct perpetual vows after the novitiate, three years of probation as a vowed member became mandatory. The one year mandatory novitiate (canonical we call it) has been extended before and after, so that it's very rare to have only one year novitiate, two-year is the general norm (accepted and chosen by religious communities themselves) and, by Canon Law, can be ordinarily extended for 9 more months (making a total of almost three years) while it cannot be shortened. Other stages are added before a candidate is considered suitable to really respond to the demands of the Gospel at the level of official candidacy (novitiate) for public consecration by the Church -which is serious business by the way.

We can add to this that the knowledge of psychology helps us comprehend better the ups and downs of our moods, feelings, and inner promptings, which can so easily take over the decision making especially because the variety of choices and distractions we now have before us is almost unending. We may think that because we have greater access to data we are more informed today, and this may or may not be the case, we may simply be more confused, it all depends on what do we do with the data: do we accumulate data, or do we process it? Processing always takes time -and feels like a waste of time by the way- With our hurried pace of life we tend to act on decisions that are not really well informed. We call it discern, but that's far from true discernment. We all seem to be discerning all the time, we even "discern" if I go to the movies on Saturday or rather do something else. It seems to me that because we have the wording we believe we also have the maturity, and this is obviously not the case, just take a look at us as a society ....

Sorry this is a long introduction just to say that yes, I think that we need much more time today to mature humanly and in the faith. Actually the formation of religious life is not about "getting things" according to the community, and kind of learning and taking in a particular view of life and the gospel. It is above all a very personal, free, intimate commitment to a life of faith ans self sacrifice, of humble obedience and service, to values that are not apparent and are even contrary to the values that have raised us to the point where we are today willing to give our life to Jesus, etc. etc. Even so-called "active" communities have to recognize and foster the interior life of their members beyond external ministry or they would not survive the challenge of our time.

We are living tough times but also challenging times. Just take a look at the recent WYD experience and see the potential around us and within us. But we have to allow the gestation to take place. Time is our friend because God is always in the present moment caring for us and leading us to our full stature in Christ. It is this presence of God in the present moment of my life what we need to focus on much more than a fantasized future of certain "holy status" as a member of a social group. Jesus is the Spouse of our soul here and now with and without religious vows. Do we live up to this profound mystery happening right now? Or do I dismiss it because it doesn't have a "feeling" attached to it? Being a perpetually professed religious may or may not have a "feeling" attached to it, and I need to be prepared for that, I need to learn to live by faith here and now, whether it is to respond to a religious call, to the marriage calling, or to life as a fulfilled Christian single person witnessing Jesus Christ with my life.

Peace, and much love and prayers to all discerners.

[vee]

God made St Teresa Benedicta wait ten years or so before entering Carmel. I think she was probably just happy to be in the door at that point.

I dont care about postulancy, novitiate etc or how long they are. If I had to remain a perpetual postulant for life Id do that, and be shocked God let me in the door.

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1314679211' post='2297426']
God made St Teresa Benedicta wait ten years or so before entering Carmel. I think she was probably just happy to be in the door at that point.

I dont care about postulancy, novitiate etc or how long they are. If I had to remain a perpetual postulant for life Id do that, and be shocked God let me in the door.
[/quote]

Having had it go pearshaped once, when (like most) I was constantly wishing my life away - longing for Clothing from the day I entered, and profession from the day I was Clothed, I can only agree.

[maximillion]

I entered in 1972. Enclosed Contemplative, Sacred Heart order in France. I was 23 years old and had trained as a nurse and was by then a Staff Nurse. (RN)
Our postulancy was 1 year, but if the NM thought you were ready you could apply for Clothing after a minimum of six months. I was a postulant for 6 months and one week. It came as a bit of a surprise when my NM dropped a hint that I may be considering applying for Clothing, as I had fully expected to go the full year. One year later came first (Simple) Vows, made for one year. These were repeated for a further two years at which point one received the black veil of Junior Profession. Then there was a further period of Vows for Three Years, followed by Perpetual Profession. Seven and a half to eight years from entrance (no candidacy period) to full Profession. The length of formation in the community was changed following V2, with an extra three years added. The community were in deliberations about changing the First Vows to Promises throughout the time I was there, and changing our constitution so that a sister could delay final profession for a further three years, when I left.
The community foundered in 1996. Following my own entry there were only seven more entries who made it to full profession.

[DameAgnes]

Interesting discussion. I once talked to a contemplative nun about these newer, longer terms and she said they never bothered her, "I entered with the expectation that if God willed it, I would be here for the rest of my life, so it didn't really matter how long it took to become professed. The life is still lived from day to day."

I like that.

Still, are these lengths of time also true for men? Do most of them go through a whole year of postulancy?

Nunsense brought up a good point about support when one is sent away. I recently learned that a community order sent away two separate sisters who had been in the community for 8 & 9 years, respectively, and believed they'd be professing final vows. Suddenly, no, they were sent away, for different reasons. I have to wonder: how do you use this "bride of Christ" language so freely, and tell your sisters in formation that they are espoused to Christ, and wearing a lifelong wedding gown, only to say, after 8-9 years, "well, but not in your case. We've decided that you are not a bride of Christ, after all." It seems cruel, to me. After so many years? If they'd had doubts about the sister, why allow her to persist only to let her go at the 11th hour? How does that affect the sister's spirit? How does that affect the younger sisters coming up? Do they suddenly wonder, "so, are we Brides of Christ or not?"

Edited August 30, 2011 by DameAgnes

[Lisa]

[quote name='DameAgnes' timestamp='1314722809' post='2297534']
Still, are these lengths of time also true for men? Do most of them go through a whole year of postulancy?
[/quote]

No, for instance, the Dominicans have a 4 week "pre-novitiate", a one year novitiate, and then three years until solemn vows, two more till ordination (if they are to be ordained, so cooperator brothers end after solemn vows)

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='DameAgnes' timestamp='1314722809' post='2297534']
Still, are these lengths of time also true for men? Do most of them go through a whole year of postulancy?
[/quote]

No, some religious orders have a short formation:

[b]Little Brothers of St. Francis[/b]
--[font="Verdana"][size="2"]After preliminary "come and see" visits, a candidate spends three months in observership, six months in postulancy, a year in novitiate, and then three years of temporary vows. Solemn perpetual vows is the final commitment.[/size][/font]

[b]Maronite Monks of Adoration[/b]
--[font="Verdana"][size="2"]Six-month candidacy, one year novitiate in Petersham, MA, three years temporary vows followed by perpetual profession.[/size][/font]

[b]Canons Regular of St. John Cantius[/b]
--[font="Verdana"][size="2"]Postulancy is two or more months. Novitiate is two years, followed by profession of temporary vows, to be renewed annually until profession of final vows.[/size][/font]

[b]Congregation of the Fathers of Mercy[/b]
--[font="Verdana"][size="2"]A candidate first completes a brief postulancy, followed by a five-day retreat, after which he enters a year of novitiate training to discern his vocation. During this year, the foundation of the spiritual life is laid.[/size][/font]

[b]The Abbey of Genesee (Cistercian Monks)[/b]
--[font="Verdana"][size="2"]The monks have a one month observership, a six month postulancy, two year novitiate and a minimum of three years of temporary profession before making solemn vows for life.[/size][/font]

[b]Benedictines of the Mount Angel Abbey[/b]
--6 months postulancy, 1 year novitiate followed by 3 years temporary profession, solemn profession.

[b]Benedictines of St. Mary's Monastery[/b]
--[font="Verdana"][size="2"]After one or preferably more visits, observership of one month is made, living with the monks. If one decides to return after that month, six months postulancy; then two years novitiate and three or more years in simple vows; then solemn profession.[/size][/font]

[b]Brigittines of Our Lady of Consolation[/b]
--[font="Verdana"][size="2"]Formation consists of an initial two-week visit, a further observership of thirty days, a postulancy of six months, and a novitiate of two years. Temporary vows are then pronounced for three years, and then perpetual vows are professed.[/size][/font]

[b]Discalced Carmelite Friars of the St. Joseph's Province[/b]
--[font="Verdana"][size="2"]Postulancy: four to six months. Novitiate: one year (with an additional six months as a junior professed brother in the novitiate). Juniorate: five years of temporary vows renewed annually (may undergo priestly formation at this time). Solemn profession: At the end of five years of temporary vows. The friar becomes a chapter member at this time.[/size][/font]

[b]Benedictine Abbey of St. Andrew[/b]
--6 month postulancy, 1 or 2 year novitiate, 3 years temporary vows, perpetual profession

This is just a taste of the men's formation. There are some religious orders that have decided to extend postulancy to a year like the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal. Most are pretty streamlined.

[EWIE]

[color=#A52A2A][size=4][b]It definately is cruel and leaves a young woman with a "hole in her soul", that takes years and years to heal, if ever. In the old days, a young girl could be told that she had not been called by God, asked to leave with only the clothes she could find from when she entered, and told NEVER to contact the order or any of the sisters ......EVER again. [/b][b]Many years ago. there was a stigma attatched to leaving and one was considered a "deserter".[/b]
[b]Very. very sad and very unloving.[/b]
[b]Thank the good God that some things have changed.[/b][/size][/color]

[LuxChristi]

Very interesting about the male communitites: so if we note that there are examples of men's communitities which stay close to the Canon Law minimums, vs. Women's communitities which do not and instead add several years since V-II do not, is it possible there is a correlation between the lengthening of time to become professed, the public and personal effects of communities dismissing women right before their solemn profession after they've nearly made the 8-9 year "cut" so to speak, and the continuous decline of women's vocations since V-II?

[OnlySunshine]

[quote]LuxChristi, on 30 August 2011 - 06:44 PM, said:


Very interesting about the male communitites: so if we note that there are examples of men's communitities which stay close to the Canon Law minimums, vs. Women's communitities which do not and instead add several years since V-II do not, is it possible there is a correlation between the lengthening of time to become professed, the public and personal effects of communities dismissing women right before their solemn profession after they've nearly made the 8-9 year "cut" so to speak, and the continuous decline of women's vocations since V-II?[/quote]


Both religious orders I have looked at seriously have required an extended formation. The first one (that I applied to) has at least a 9 month postulancy that can be extended to 2 years if necessary, 2 years of novitiate (the 1st is canonical, 2nd apostolic), 5 years of temporary vows (which can be extended up to 9 years if the Sister needs extra time to discern), and the perpetual profession.

The one I am looking at now has a year long postulancy, 2 years of novitiate, 5 years of temporary vows, and then perpetual profession. I think the temporary vows can be extended upon request.

I once heard that the reason why women religious extended their formation was because of the natural inclination towards marriage and family. They wanted to make sure that the Sister completely thought her discernment through before committing her life to her vocation as a religious. If you note, many of the strictly cloistered orders have a much shorter formation period because of the intense study and life of prayer as opposed to one who goes out into the world to complete her apostolate.

For example, pretty much all of the cloistered Carmels have 1 year of postulancy (can be shortened to 6 months by some), 2 years of novitiate, 3 years of temporary vows, and solemn profession. I even know of some Carmels that follow the 1990 Constitutions that have only 1 year of novitiate, but the 3 years of temp. vows are considered an extended novitiate where the nun is not yet a chapter member until they make solemn profession.

The Cistercian nuns of Prairie du Sac, WI have a 1 year postulancy, 1 year novitiate, 3 years temp. vows, and solemn profession.

The Dominican Nuns of the Perpetual Rosary have a 1 year postulancy, 1 year novitiate, 3 years temp. vows, and solemn profession.

Edited August 31, 2011 by MaterMisericordiae

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='EWIE' timestamp='1314736402' post='2297599']
[color=#a52a2a][size=4][b]It definately is cruel and leaves a young woman with a "hole in her soul", that takes years and years to heal, if ever. In the old days, a young girl could be told that she had not been called by God, asked to leave with only the clothes she could find from when she entered, and told NEVER to contact the order or any of the sisters ......EVER again. [/b][b]Many years ago. there was a stigma attatched to leaving and one was considered a "deserter".[/b][/size][/color]
[color=#a52a2a][size=4][b]Very. very sad and very unloving.[/b][/size][/color]
[color=#a52a2a][size=4][b]Thank the good God that some things have changed.[/b][/size][/color]
[/quote]

I sure hope things have changed!~
I entered a monastic community shortly after V2 and then a different community 15yrs ago. I chose to leave both and my parting from both communities left me feeling dreaful due to parting comments by my NM's in both. After leaving the first community, I suffered dreadful guilt for years afterwards until I met a priest theologian who undertook to direct me and finally was able to set me straight. With the second community, by then I was in my forties and fortunately was able to work things out for myself, though initially I felt dreadful guilt and my NM's 'parting shot' left me with the feeling that I was rejecting God and in the doing, He was rejecting me.

It is important and especially for those who may be asked to leave that fraternal charity is not abandoned by leadership nor the community - and this is why I would really like to see something in Canon Law about those who leave religious life either by their own choice or if they are asked to leave. Not that this should be necessary as [i]ideally[/i] fraternal charity and understanding and compassion apply in all circumstances no exceptions.

Edited August 31, 2011 by BarbaraTherese

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1314782126' post='2297978']

I sure hope things have changed!~
I entered a monastic community shortly after V2 and then a different community 15yrs ago. I chose to leave both and my parting from both communities left me feeling dreaful due to parting comments by my NM's in both. After leaving the first community, I suffered dreadful guilt for years afterwards until I met a priest theologian who undertook to direct me and finally was able to set me straight. With the second community, by then I was in my forties and fortunately was able to work things out for myself, though initially I felt dreadful guilt and my NM's 'parting shot' left me with the feeling that I was rejecting God and in the doing, He was rejecting me.

It is important and especially for those who may be asked to leave that fraternal charity is not abandoned by leadership nor the community - and this is why I would really like to see something in Canon Law about those who leave religious life either by their own choice or if they are asked to leave. Not that this should be necessary as [i]ideally[/i] fraternal charity and understanding and compassion apply in all circumstances no exceptions.
[/quote]


I'm with you here Barb. Not everything has changed - it all depends on the superior and the community involved. At some communities, they still won't even let you say goodbye to the other sisters. At other communities, they are incredibly kind and sensitive and let all the goodbyes happen and ongoing communication be maintained, at least with the Prioress, if not with all of the sisters (each community is different).

I think it hurts whether you are asked to leave or if you choose to leave, but I do have to say that the feeling of being rejected by God is immense when one is happy in the community but then receives the shock of being told that they don't fit in and must leave immediately without any goodbyes. I don't know that I will ever totally recover from that experience, but I at least hope that it has made my faith stronger and my compassion deeper. I can't imagine the pain of a sister who has nearly reached final profession but been told to leave... I knew one sister that this happened to, but who was allowed to re-renter at a later date and was finally professed, but only after 17 years of trying!!! Talk about perseverence!

On two occasions when I left, I had no other options... the abuse was simply too great to bear and not being St Therese, I couldn't endure it any longer. The funny thing is though, at two communities, I have maintained an ongoing contact with them, and am kept informed of things like clothings and professions and elections. At one, we communicate sporadically, only when something important has happened. At one of the communities, a dear and holy sister was recently elected Prioress and I was so happy to hear it because I felt that at last things could start to change there, and that the Holy Spirit is breathing into that community now. There is one community that I have never written to since I left, and will never do so... the abuse was too great and I was offered no support or help. I pray for them every day, but as I don't maintain contact, I don't know if things have changed or will ever change there. Memories of that experience are so bad that I never even think about it - it is almost as if it never happened to me - a form of denial!

The thing is that throughout the Church, there is good and bad, holiness and evil... but that's because God chose human beings and not angels to be His Church. I have only love and concern for the Church, and for those trying to live religious life, but I no longer have romantic and idealistic ideas about what is involved in the life or the people. I have known near saints, and dreadful bullies, humble servants, and ambitious b*tches (pardon the language). God has been very good in giving me so much experience and my life isn't over yet.

The length of time it takes to become professed isn't the main issue here, because I don't think any amount of time is going to solve all the problems in religious life... I have known nuns of more than 60 years in the life, and also one sister who had to leave to care for her mother and then came back 20 years later to live as an extern! Every sister's story is different because everyone is an individual. All we can pray is that ceach ommunity tries to respond to the guidance of the Holy Spirit in everything it does.

And for me, these days, the main thing is to try to be aware of God's plans more than my own. This takes a little practice, but I am getting better at it, I think. Being a stubborn type, perhaps He has just had to be a little firmer with me than He might have to be with someone else. But isn't He just too wonderful for words? And that's what it's all about in the end, or at least it should be, in my opinion. After all, in heaven, we will spend all our time loving Him.... now is just a good time to practice