Female Altar Servers And Vocations

[vee]

[b]Q. 917. What is the Mass?[/b]
A. The Mass is the unbloody sacrifice of the body and blood of Christ.

[b]Q. 920. Is the Mass the same sacrifice as that of the Cross?[/b]
A. The Mass is the same sacrifice as that of the Cross.
[b]Q. 921. How is the Mass the same sacrifice as that of the Cross?[/b]
A. The Mass is the same sacrifice as that of the Cross because the offering and the priest are the same -- Christ our Blessed Lord; and the ends for which the sacrifice of the Mass is offered are the same as those of the sacrifice of the Cross.

[Aloysius]

what if we had altar girls who wore mantillas?

[vee]

[dominicansoul]

...the Liturgy is not the place for gender politics


i am a strong believer that embracing tradition would not be a "step backward" for the Church ...


...and I believe women have always had a "role" in the Church since the time of Jesus...


i'm a woman, and on top of all the modern arguments of women's roles in the Catholic Church today, I have to say that I've never felt the least bit ignored or suppressed by Jesus Christ when I receive Him in the Eucharist... i don't have to be up on the altar, filling in some role to feel my womanhood is important in the Catholic Church... I'm happy taking my place in the pews ... (or behind the organ, where I for the most time, have always been...)

if women take advantage of the permission to serve in such capacities, I hope they do it out of a genuine love to serve the Church, and not just to fulfill some need to prove that "woman can do it just as well as a man can--- so take that!"

Edited August 31, 2011 by dominicansoul

[Lil Red]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1314751876' post='2297772']
if women take advantage of the permission to serve in such capacities, I hope they do it out of a genuine love to serve the Church, and not just to fulfill some need to prove that "woman can do it just as well as a man can--- so take that!"
[/quote]
i'm going to try this again. the first time, i got too frustrated trying to type up my response.

i think most women do feel this way, that they are doing this out of love to serve the Church. i guess what i'm hearing is an attitude of 'well, even though you [i]think[/i] you are doing this out of love for the Church, in reality, you are doing it out of a deep-seated need to show you're better than men.' or an attitude of 'well, yes, you may be doing this out of love to serve the Church, but what the Church says invalidates your experience, and you don't truly need to be there at all. even though you have a particular love of doing something, you aren't allowed, so you must do something else, even if you don't particularly love it. or just sit in the pew and shut up and take it.'

so a woman is a sacristan, or a reader...and really loves serving the Church in this manner. Aloysius is (I think, I'm trying not to muddle up here) saying that an all-male sanctuary, which in some churches does include the ambo, is part of the 'liturgical symbolism to the ministerial priesthood'. okay. so are those women supposed to feel automatically happy? Sorry, no. I would feel incredibly sad and upset, [b]which does not preclude accepting it because the Church mandates it[/b] (though, guess what, it's not a universal norm of the Church, regardless if the Pope has a set of rules for the diocese of Rome, he hasn't mandated it as a universal norm). i'm thinking, in particular, of a lovely friend of mine, who reads a reading at Sunday Mass on a regular basis. Yes, she is good at it. Yes, she has a love of doing it, because she is serving the Church. Yes, she is a faithful Catholic (very faithful). Yes, she would be incredibly hurt to be told that because an all-male sanctuary is part of the 'liturgical symbolism to the ministerial priesthood', she can no longer read at Sunday Mass. No, it wouldn't drive her away from the Church. But when you have a gift (and I consider reading the Scriptures well a gift from God), and told you cannot use that gift, it would be hurtful.

i doubt i am explaining myself correctly, though, so i will probably still get flack for yes, considering someone's [i]feelings[/i] (how liberal of me!) and how changes might effect someone & their faith life. oh well. sigh. i just re-read this and i feel i did an awful job of explaining how i feel.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Lil Red

[Lil Red]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1314751876' post='2297772']if women take advantage of the permission to serve in such capacities, I hope they do it out of a genuine love to serve the Church, and not just to fulfill some need to prove that "woman can do it just as well as a man can--- so take that!"[/quote]

i just have to add that, do you really think that most of the women who serve as readers or sacristans or extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist really are fulfilling a need of proving that women can do it too? in my experience, out of girl altar servers, women emEs, women sacristans, and women readers - ONE of those women was an ultra-liberal, 'stick it to the man' type. ONE. out of maybe a hundred. no, these women love God, love the Church and their local parish and want to serve out of that love. Not a need to be doing something that equals 'active participation' (don't get me started on that phrase), not a need to 'stick it to the man'. Out of love.

[dominicansoul]

no, i'm not anti-woman, i'm anti-gender politicking and using the Holy Mass as a battleground...


i can believe now a days that women fill those roles with all their hearts, too. but at the beginning? iono.. not in my parish... it was all about "sticking it to the man" because they were doing it loooong before they even had permission...

if everybody just obeyed, that would be great!!!

[vee]

As a former altar girl my opinion is let the guys have it. We need good and holy male priests and if we can get guys interested by example and serving at a young age then yay!!! Without good and holy male priests who act in persona Christi the Church is a mess with only two sacraments. The devil knows the value of the priesthood and he will try to attack it in every way. Im happy to be in the pew and serve in the way the Baltimore Catechism describes in what I excerpted above.

[MissScripture]

I don't generally notice an attitude of "sticking it to the man" though, I'm sure that there are women out there who ARE taking on certain roles because of such an attitude. The attitude I have noticed, both in males and females, is one of self-importance by doing things. I don't think it's necessarily an intentional attitude, and I think it starts as genuinely wanting to help and be involved. But through poor catechesis, people come to think they are vital to the Mass and that they have a RIGHT to do these things, when they're not and they don't. Not to sound harsh, but really, the only person necessary for Mass to happen is the priest. And I think until the majority of people realize that, they're will be issues with things like altar servers and EMHC, because people see them just as a job to be completed.

[Aloysius]

I don't think anyone is an altar girl in order to "stick it to the man" as it were; some people hold an opinion about altar girls which is based in gender politicking, but the actual altar girls themselves definitely don't do it out of that. they do it because their parents want them to, or because they want to, and when they do it it either brings them closer to the Lord, or it bores them and they twiddle with the rope sashes around their albs like I used to do.

I may have been slightly misunderstood: what I intended to say is that I don't think talking about an all-male sanctuary necessarily needs to include the ambo, even when the ambo is [i]technically[/i] part of the sanctuary in the architecture of the Church. again, I cannot speak for Father Z, he may be including readers in his thought process or he may not be. from the context out of which the poll arose, I think it likely that he did not intend to refer to female lay readers at all as part of the question, I've never seen him speak against female lay readers at all, and he certainly has not done so in the context of the poll he made, so the poll question may have simply been overly broad in its scope unintentionally. I like the quote about how readers and EMHCs serve the people while altar servers serve the priest and are "the priest's hands" as it were. I think the Gospel itself being only read by the clergy does enough to serve the purpose of the liturgical symbolism of the laity coming to receive the word of God from the representative of Christ, and lay people reading the epistles and old testament parts to other lay people is not a problem.

when it comes to altar girls, it seems this parish did it pretty awesomely: http://www.ncregister.com/site/article/boys_will_be_altar_boys/ . the cat was out of the bag, so instead of just banning it outright, they phased them out. cudos to Fr Pokorsky on the way that seems to have been handled. I'm not saying that those who make use of the allowance have done anything wrong, I am sure they have served quite well and have gotten a lot out of it. the fact that it was allowed is what unravelled this point of liturgical symbolism, and it would've been unravelled whether or not they individually chose to do it. I'm sure they swung their incense well (if it was used in their parish), I'm sure they brought the wine to the altar well, poured the water over the priest's hands well, and did a good job doing all those things that an acolyte would properly do. I don't begrudge them the job they did, or the service they provided; I begrudge the lack of the Acolyte before the eyes of the people, the lack of the mini cleric apprentice that stood in as the same symbol.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1314760322' post='2297893']
I don't generally notice an attitude of "sticking it to the man" though, I'm sure that there are women out there who ARE taking on certain roles because of such an attitude. The attitude I have noticed, both in males and females, is one of self-importance by doing things. I don't think it's necessarily an intentional attitude, and I think it starts as genuinely wanting to help and be involved. But through poor catechesis, people come to think they are vital to the Mass and that they have a RIGHT to do these things, when they're not and they don't. Not to sound harsh, but really, the only person necessary for Mass to happen is the priest. And I think until the majority of people realize that, they're will be issues with things like altar servers and EMHC, because people see them just as a job to be completed.
[/quote]
This is exactly how I felt when asked to be an EMHC. I'd been unsure about EMHCs in general, but when I was asked to be one, well, I felt rather important and it was nice to do something. I later stopped doing it when I realised that. It wasn't intentionally prideful or self-important, and I don't think anyone I've met has had that attitude about it. Rather, I think it can be a misplaced sense of service, if that makes sense, or a misunderstanding of active participation in the liturgy. I absolutely do not ascribe false motives to anyone fulfilling these positions, nor do I think badly of anyone who is serving in this way or who has been spiritually benefited from that service.

[Papist]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1314744021' post='2297645']
Did most of the problems with not being able to find boys willing to serve at the altar being before or after "altar girls" started becoming the norm in many parishes. In the parish I belonged to which was in a diocese that did not allow altar girls, there was never any problem finding boys to serve.
The problem seems to usually occur after altar girls become common, and this tends to make boys see the job as "girly" and be less likely to have interest.

From what I understand, the practice of altar girls (which was in defiance of the rules of the Church) came about not from a dire shortage of boys willing to serve at the altar, but from a feminist "gender equality" mindset - the whole idea that little Susie should be able to do whatever little Johnny does.
[/quote]
It's standard that if you want boys to stop doing something, make it a girl thing.

[Papist]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1314759886' post='2297887']
As a former altar girl my opinion is let the guys have it. We need good and holy male priests and if we can get guys interested by example and serving at a young age then yay!!! Without good and holy male priests who act in persona Christi the Church is a mess with only two sacraments. The devil knows the value of the priesthood and he will try to attack it in every way. Im happy to be in the pew and serve in the way the Baltimore Catechism describes in what I excerpted above.
[/quote]
Yep! Without the priesthood, we would not have the Eucharist.

[Lisa]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1314774963' post='2297969']

when it comes to altar girls, it seems this parish did it pretty awesomely: [url="http://www.ncregister.com/site/article/boys_will_be_altar_boys/"]http://www.ncregiste..._be_altar_boys/[/url] . the cat was out of the bag, so instead of just banning it outright, they phased them out. cudos to Fr Pokorsky on the way that seems to have been handled. I'm not saying that those who make use of the allowance have done anything wrong, I am sure they have served quite well and have gotten a lot out of it. the fact that it was allowed is what unravelled this point of liturgical symbolism, and it would've been unravelled whether or not they individually chose to do it. I'm sure they swung their incense well (if it was used in their parish), I'm sure they brought the wine to the altar well, poured the water over the priest's hands well, and did a good job doing all those things that an acolyte would properly do. I don't begrudge them the job they did, or the service they provided; I begrudge the lack of the Acolyte before the eyes of the people, the lack of the mini cleric apprentice that stood in as the same symbol.
[/quote]

I wanted to re-quote this. Also, read the link he provided, it's excellent. They are starting a "Helpers of Mary" ministry to give the girls a special place in the church's service- to the elderly in nursing homes.

We always talk about how Catholics truly understand masculinity and femininity; even when the world tells us it's "sexist" we get why there shouldn't be female priests- because God made us a certain way, and Jesus used his disciples in different ways.

Because we are different- inside and out- our service can look different too. I'm not advocating that women's service in the church should only be in sweeping, chipping candle drippings off the floor, and ironing the linens, but we can do a lot with our ability as women to be nurturers. I've always thought it would be good to have a mother's group that went to Mass together so that way, if a single mom/mom-who's-husband-was-away had to go out with a little one, other moms- or even single young women- could help watch the older kids. While it's not nearly as visually impressive as being an altar server and right up front, that would be so helpful to building up the church!

A parish in my diocese has a "Little Flowers" group, that serves as readers, brings up the gifts, and helps in other ways. I was an altar server when I was younger and loved it, but now am beginning to see that there are gifts I can give. This is in no way disparaging the whole-hearted and humble service provide by many of the female altar servers here, just some thoughts.

[Basilisa Marie]

I think it's kind of terrible that we let boys believe that something "girly" is bad, and not just what girls do. I'm not saying that all boys should do girl things and vice versa, but implicitly letting them get away with believing that girly things are bad (and not just simply things girls do) just adds fuel to the "icky feminist" fire.

[quote name='Lisa' timestamp='1314798732' post='2298026']

I wanted to re-quote this. Also, read the link he provided, it's excellent. They are starting a "Helpers of Mary" ministry to give the girls a special place in the church's service- to the elderly in nursing homes.

We always talk about how Catholics truly understand masculinity and femininity; even when the world tells us it's "sexist" we get why there shouldn't be female priests- because God made us a certain way, and Jesus used his disciples in different ways.

Because we are different- inside and out- our service can look different too. I'm not advocating that women's service in the church should only be in sweeping, chipping candle drippings off the floor, and ironing the linens, but we can do a lot with our ability as women to be nurturers. I've always thought it would be good to have a mother's group that went to Mass together so that way, if a single mom/mom-who's-husband-was-away had to go out with a little one, other moms- or even single young women- could help watch the older kids. While it's not nearly as visually impressive as being an altar server and right up front, that would be so helpful to building up the church!

A parish in my diocese has a "Little Flowers" group, that serves as readers, brings up the gifts, and helps in other ways. I was an altar server when I was younger and loved it, but now am beginning to see that there are gifts I can give. This is in no way disparaging the whole-hearted and humble service provide by many of the female altar servers here, just some thoughts.
[/quote]

I really think this is the best way to help "solve" the problem people have with not letting girls altar serve - have some kind of group only for the girls that can do some kind of service during the Mass, while also doing other things outside of mass. Bringing up the gifts, reading, ushering, anything like that. I think what it sometimes comes down to is that girls (and often just their parents) somehow hear the message that "You're not as important as the boys." Regardless of how untrue and ridiculous that can sound, having [i]some [/i]kind of special club for the girls that might also participate in some kind of service during mass can send the message of "yes, we value you too, but girls and boys are different." Practically, it would ease a whole lot of complaints about having altar boys.