Female Altar Servers And Vocations

[Lil Red]

if anyone brings up the CCW as a club for just women, I will puke.

Okay, that's strongly worded. But, in my experiences, the CCW circles are for women who are at least 45+, whose children are grown and gone, who have grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and sometimes great-great-grandchildren. I have nothing in common with these women. edit: besides being Catholic and of the same gender.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Lil Red

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1314746896' post='2297681']
the all girls' club can do anything that other lay clubs can do. they simply shouldn't substitute for clerical roles within the liturgy. it's an exception to even allow lay boys to do so, but that exception has a very specific purpose: an apprentiship that fosters vocations to the priesthood by allowing the boys to begin to do the role of a minor cleric.
[/quote]

If having lay boys serve at the altar is an exception ... then I would say eliminate the role as well if it is to be restricted to all boys. Others have already stated that having girls as altar servers can foster vocations to religious life as well.

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1314746934' post='2297682']if anyone brings up the CCW as a club for just women, I will puke. Okay, that's strongly worded. But, in my experiences, the CCW circles are for women who are at least 45+, whose children are grown and gone, who have grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and sometimes great-great-grandchildren. I have nothing in common with these women. edit: besides being Catholic and of the same gender.[/quote]

I don't qualify ... I'm under 45, I have no children. Yippie!

[Aloysius]

[quote]If having lay boys serve at the altar is an exception ... then I would say eliminate the role as well if it is to be restricted to all boys. Others have already stated that having girls as altar servers can foster vocations to religious life as well.[/quote]
as I have stated in all my other posts throughout this thread: it's not about marketing vocations. potential clerics substituting for a clerical role maintains the role's clerical symbolism; those who are not potential clerics substituting for those roles clearly ruptures the clerical symbolism. no longer is the altar server an extension of the ministerial priesthood to the laity. and when that happens, we lose something concrete and substantial about the liturgical atmosphere.

[faithcecelia]

If girls on the altar supposedly hampers vocations, and its been suggested modern parishes do too, goodness only knows what is going on at my home parish where I have just heard of the 11th religious vocation in 7yrs (12 if you count myself in my current situation) with the first ordination of this wave being in 3wks time. The parish has allowed girls to serve for a while, don't know how long but my best friend was the first and shes 25 now. Its also a traditional but very modern parish (and the 2 co-exist very easily, but thats its own story). As for the implied (by some) women getting above their station and believing they should be priests - the friend I mentioned is not counted in the vocations mentioned but undoubtably has one, as one of the most obvious examples of a vocation to marriage and motherhood that I have ever seen.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='cmariadiaz' timestamp='1314747083' post='2297683']I don't qualify ... I'm under 45, I have no children. Yippie![/quote]
i don't qualify either, i'm under 45 and i have little ones.

[MargaretTeresa]

Addressing the sanctuary topic: Our sanctuary "officially" (according to the online tour doo-dah) includes the altar, celebrant's chair, great crucifix, tabernacle and ambo.

I guess, then, whenever I go up to do the readings (ahem, whatever the first is and the respondsorary Psalm) for daily Mass, I am technically in the sanctuary. While, according to Fr Z's poll terms, I shouldn't be up there, I am in no way doing anything other than reading. I am not handing Fr J the stuff off the side table (wine, host, etc). Unless Deacon T is there, he does that all by himself during daily and has altar boys who help at the Sunday masses.

I dunno if any of those who fill that role are discerning - privately or with spiritual direction.

I do know this: we have female readers. We have a women's prayer circle. We have women's Rosary. It's mostly women who bring in pyx and take the Eucharist to the sick. The men/boys have a prayer coffee thing, the Knights of Columbus, and the boys have altar service.

I haven't heard any complaints.

[Aloysius]

the ministerial priesthood is, by design, a masculine institution. within the liturgy the priest symbolizes Christ to the people.
acolytes are extensions of the ministerial priesthood, also masculine, extensions of the alter-Christus, they join the priest in representing Christ to the people.
lay people who replace acolytes are still standing in for that role, the role that is an extension of the ministerial priesthood.

it's not about whether we have a million vocations to the priesthood or just one, it's not about statistics, it's not about marketing. the fact remains that this liturgical symbolism is ruptured when it is made a "lay" job. yes, altar boys are laity, but when they dress in the cassock they are becoming apprentices to the clergy, they are stepping up and, for a moment, becoming little mini clergy (listen to the Arinze video posted above, this is what the Italians call them). for that liturgy in that moment, they are standing in as acolytes, minor clerics, and becoming extensions of the ministerial priesthood.

if the ministerial priesthood is masculine, these extensions IMO must also be masculine. the whole mindset of having altar girls has made altar service into something which is part of the "laity". if the only way to return to the proper liturgical symbolism is to disallow any member of the laity from performing these roles, and only allowing permanently instituted Acolytes do it, then so be it. that's an impractical solution, but it's the only other possible solution to maintaining the symbolism of the ministerial priesthood in the roles of altar servers.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Aloysius

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1314743154' post='2297642']
And if there are so few boys at all in your parish, period, I think that in itself shows there are bigger problems in your parish.
[/quote]

This is a good lead-in to something nobody has brought up yet: the declining enrollment in Catholic schools. When I was growing up (before the "altar girl" trend started), the source of altar boys was the Catholic school; I know of none that were from public school but attended CCD. However, my eight grade class alone was almost half the size of the entire parish school in the parish in which I now reside, and one of the constant questions is whether our enrollment will drop to a level where teh Archdiocese will close our school.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='cmariadiaz' timestamp='1314655614' post='2297087']

In another thread ...
[/quote]

Too late. The [font=tahoma, geneva, sans-serif]f[size=4]a[/size]rt[/font] is airborne.

Besides, part of the purpose of this thread is vocations, so let's be correct about what we're talking about.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Norseman82

[LaPetiteSoeur]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1314749016' post='2297714']

This is a good lead-in to something nobody has brought up yet: the declining enrollment in Catholic schools. When I was growing up (before the "altar girl" trend started), the source of altar boys was the Catholic school; I know of none that were from public school but attended CCD. However, my eight grade class alone was almost half the size of the entire parish school in the parish in which I now reside, and one of the constant questions is whether our enrollment will drop to a level where teh Archdiocese will close our school.
[/quote]

Our school closed in the 1980s. The reason? The Irish Catholics who had sent their kids to the school moved far away to the suburbs. There are very few people who live in the neighborhood now who went to the school at all. It's sad. But Catholic school in the 1980s for the impoverished in our neighborhood was out of their money range.

[LaPetiteSoeur]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1314746330' post='2297670']
it seems no point that I have made has been replied to by those who support the practice of female altar servers. such is life. it's not about the role of women, it's about the role of the laity. it's not about the benefits to those who serve at the altar, those things are secondary; the altar server should serve the liturgy, the liturgy shouldn't serve the altar server.

"the Church" doesn't "allow it", individual dioceses are permitted to allow it. The Pope does not allow it in the diocese of Rome. it's a novel experimental practice. disallowing it would have no impact on whether women can lead talks or retreats or anything of the sort. it just isn't relevant. here's a great quote from an artical posted earlier:

[/color]
[/left][left][color=#000000]one might call what forms among altar boys an "all boys' club" with some sort of negative connotation; but I would see it as more of a fraternity. fraternal fellowship is something sorely lacking in the Church and in society at large nowadays, because any attempt at some sort of all male group is attacked as an "all boys' club". are the Knight's of Columbus an "all boys' club" that need to let women in? why can't we have a few all boys' clubs; there should also be some all girls' clubs.[/color]


[/quote]

I understand the role of the laity.

In the perfect world, I guess I never would have been an altar server, because there'd be a ton of priests.

But there's not. We could debate the reasons for that all day, and quite frankly, I think it has a variety of causes.

So. Until there are enough priests to cover all the bases, women will continue to have a big role in the church. and that is not a bad thing at all.

[/left]

[Aloysius]

the role of women in the Church isn't the issue. I'm not attacking parish councils or pastoral associates or retreat leaders. it's all about the liturgy for me; and the things that are extensions of the ministerial priesthood in the liturgy ought to be preserved in the liturgical symbolism of the ministerial priesthood.

we wouldn't need more priests, we would need more acolytes. since the minor orders on the way to the priesthood were suppressed by Pope Paul VI, it's easier than ever to create a program to make acolytes. you just have to be a 25 year old male Catholic in good standing, bishops could very easily create very easy programs to form Acolytes. there aren't any celibacy restrictions or anything; not even like there is with the diaconate (cause once you're ordained a deacon you cannot marry, though you can be already married when ordained a deacon; an acolyte would be free to marry while they were an acolyte) I prefer the tradition of apprenticeship, of young men temporarily assuming the role of a mini-cleric to preserve that symbolism in the liturgy. those are the two options that make altar service a non-lay activity as it is properly supposed to be, though.

I'd like to reiterate as well that I'm not attacking those who have served as altar servers. I have made very clear from my first posts in this thread that I am sure those who served as altar girls received many graces and I am sure some have had that as a nice stepping stone along their journey in life. being close to our Eucharistic Lord is always a good thing for someone. but one is no "closer" to Him on the altar than in the pews, His presence in the Eucharist is much more powerful than that; all who attend mass in all their roles are pretty much equi-distant from Him there.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Aloysius

[Socrates]

[quote name='cmariadiaz' timestamp='1314744712' post='2297654']

I'm stepping out of the conversation and the thread because of how strongly I feel about it.

I realize that there are a whole lot of people on PhatMass who are very traditional ... I am not (I'm not very liberal either).

MissyP said it best -- there is a risk of the "I'm better than you" all boy's club forming.
[/quote]
I think that hypothetical "risk" is an extremely poor reason for disregarding centuries of tradition (and for failing to heed the Church's continuing teaching that males are to be preferred for this role.)

At the parishes (and Catholic college) I've attended with only male altar servers I've never seen a "I'm better than you" all boy's club form (unless you take the attitude that the exclusion of girls from the sanctuary in itself constitutes a "I'm better than you all boys club.") I've spent much of my young years as an altar boy and as a lector/acolyte at places where girls were not allowed to perform these functions, and it did not go to my head, or somehow cause me to look down on girls or women. It was simply a different role.

And I've never seen other altar servers acting as snots about it towards women, either - that would just be ridiculous.

At these more traditional parishes without female altar servers, there are plenty of women (roughly the same number of women as men), and they do not appear resentful or alienated, and are quite active in parish life. But there also generally is not the lack of men common in in many more "liberal" parishes. And there are both male and female vocations.

I'm really not seeing the big problem, which seems largely to be in people's heads. Most of the arguments for altar girls I've seen here seem petty and based in envy and gender politics. I've certainly seen no compelling case for overturning the Church's norms and traditions.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Socrates

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1314750591' post='2297748']

And I've never seen other altar servers acting as snots about it towards women, either - that would just be ridiculous.

[/quote]
I have.

And I agree, it is ridiculous.

[vee]

[b]Q. 946. How should we assist at Mass?[/b]
A. We should assist at Mass with great interior recollection and piety and with every outward mark of respect and devotion.
[b]Q. 947. Which is the best manner of hearing Mass?[/b]
A. The best manner of hearing Mass is to offer it to God with the priest for the same purpose for which it is said, to meditate on Christ's sufferings and death, and to go to Holy Communion.