Female Altar Servers And Vocations

[Socrates]

[quote name='LaPetiteSoeur' timestamp='1314638085' post='2296934']



I am considering....

Ok. Re: the over hiring of women.
When there is a job opening in a parish, I have NEVER seen a guy submit his resume. Not all parishes are so women heavy in everything. My home parish's council is half and half. The office workers are, yes, mostly women, but two are secretaries, one is in charge of a non profit that helps in the neighborhood, etc. There are two guys who do custodial and fix it up work. We have equal men and women in Eucharistic ministering, lectoring, etc. We don't have guys that volunteer to teach religious ed. We have two, I think, out of 12 teachers. There are very few boys of altar serving age PERIOD in my parish. There aren't a lot of kids, and there are a ton of girls. I think the over hiring of women has more to do with who puts in resumes and who volunteers. Men tend not to. At least in the state I used to live in.[/quote]
I think the matter of who is applying for church secretary positions, etc., is a separate issue from that of whether women/girls should serve at the altar.

And if there are so few boys at all in your parish, period, I think that in itself shows there are bigger problems in your parish.

[quote]I don't think that putting girls on the altar tells them they should be priests. I think it tells them "this is a way to serve."


I am wondering though. What would you propose young girls to do instead of altar serving? There aren't too many programs. If the church does go back to all male, they seriously should have some female ministry in place. Think about it. The only real "womens" groups are the Altar Ladies...and that's all. The guys? Well, they've got the KofC, all the vocation resources in the world--guys, you try being a girl discerning religious life. It's terribly hard as all the resources out there are mostly for guys discerning the priesthood.

For women, who as my pastor said "vastly outnumber the men when I'm on the altar," there seems to be a more widely held belief that they should just attend mass. They'll always be there, they'll always care for their kids, they'll always bake for the bakesales....why should there be more ministries for them?

Sorry if this is rambling, and i don't mean to attack anyone. I think this will be my last post on the debate table for a few years....[/quote]
There are plenty of church women's groups, or groups open to women. If there aren't any in your parish, maybe you or someone else should start one.

However, none of that is really relevant as to whether women should serve at the altar.

I think the primary issue is that the mass is a solemn and Holy Sacrifice, and is not the place for "gender politics." The Church's ancient traditions should not be arbitrarily overturned on account of feminist concerns or other secular ideologies.

I think the unnecessary use of EMs (male and female) is a major issue in itself. The primary role of lay people at the Mass is to give prayerful and reverent attendance - the idea is not to try to see how many lay people we can crowd around the altar doing various tasks. Nobody has a [i]right [/i]to be at the altar. The Holy Mass is the Sacrifice of the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ to His Father - not an all-inclusive variety show, in which everybody deserves a chance to be "on stage." I think that whole attitude is at the root of much of the problems.

[BG45]

[quote name='MissyP89' timestamp='1314677763' post='2297403']
This is just a separate thought and opinion that I know I'm going to get eaten for.

IF we return to the traditional norms, then I think parishes have to step up about catechizing these boys about what it [i]means[/i] to serve the altar. As someone else said, most of the time, they're only doing it because they're forced to by family and generally don't want to be there at all.

I fear without the proper disposition and education, parishes with only male servers could find those boys turning haughty and thinking they are "better" than girls. In reality, a male server should serve with humility and reverence for the call he is responding to. While those roles are meant for men, there is plenty of potential for it to become an elitist -- forgive me -- "boys club" that does more harm for the Church and vocations than good.

Of course, I am looking at this only in the context of the OP: whether or not all-male servers promote vocations.
[/quote]

I worked with an altar server at Circuit City during RCIA. He was astounded when I mentioned the Real Presence, because he had never heard about it before in his catechetical classes or his training as an altar server when he was younger. "Who the hell would believe that Phil?" "Well Sam, I would for one..."

So I agree with what you said in the context of the OP.

[Socrates]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1314626818' post='2296873']


except if there are not enough boys becoming alter servers, then what is the church to do? i understand that people should try to get boys inovlved, but trying and actually doing are two different things. i guess until the vatican changes the rules, i am fine with whatever they choose. they know a lot more than little old me.
[/quote]
Did most of the problems with not being able to find boys willing to serve at the altar being before or after "altar girls" started becoming the norm in many parishes. In the parish I belonged to which was in a diocese that did not allow altar girls, there was never any problem finding boys to serve.
The problem seems to usually occur after altar girls become common, and this tends to make boys see the job as "girly" and be less likely to have interest.

From what I understand, the practice of altar girls (which was in defiance of the rules of the Church) came about not from a dire shortage of boys willing to serve at the altar, but from a feminist "gender equality" mindset - the whole idea that little Susie should be able to do whatever little Johnny does.

[Socrates]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1314651090' post='2297034']

Hi Lina,

Thank you for that post, it was very informative. I'm just curious what your opinion is on the number of vocations coming from traditional parishes. There are parishes that follow the pre-Vatican II guidelines strictly, e.g. only Altar boys, Liturgy in Latin, etc, and they produce not only more seminarians, but more female vocations for religious life. If not allowing girls to be servers is such a hindrance, why do you suppose these parishes have more vocations?

Lastly, how would you feel if the Priest at your parishes wanted to restore the traditional norm? Would you be supportive? Being that you are in a parish council, would you ever suggest restoring the traditional norms? And how do you suppose your parish council would react to such a suggestion?

In Christ,
Mort
[/quote]
Very salient points.

If lack of female altar servers, EMs, etc. is preventing female vocations, then why are vocations of all kinds higher at traditional parishes which do not engage in those practices?

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1314705430' post='2297462']Peace Cmariadiaz, That's what I would expect from most parishes. I'm just curious, how does the parish council authority weight out with that of the priest? So if for instance a traditional priest were installed, and he wanted to retore the traditional guidelines, could the parish council over power him? And on flip side, if a liberal priest were in a traditional parish, could the traditional parish council over rule him? Well as you are probably aware, those roles were restricted to Priests, and in rare instances deacons. So basically all the men of a given parish were also excluded from such roles. Why is that? Are women strongly empowered in the church by this? And is that an important issue in decision making when it comes to discipline? In Christ, Mort[/quote]

I'm stepping out of the conversation and the thread because of how strongly I feel about it.

I realize that there are a whole lot of people on PhatMass who are very traditional ... I am not (I'm not very liberal either).

MissyP said it best -- there is a risk of the "I'm better than you" all boy's club forming.

And as far as "if a traditional priest came on board and wanted to restore traditional guidelines" well he'd probably disband parish council. It wouldn't be the first time that that would be done. I'd definitely leave the parish then. I have never been tied to a parish along territorial lines, so why start now ?

Finally as I've said before ... the beauty of the Catholic church is its diversity. Right now, the Church allows extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist (both men and women), allows women (and girls) to be altar servers, allows women to be lectors, and allows women to serve in many other positions such as on parish council, DRE, etc. Women are also allowed to leave the convent to serve the communities that they are in (if they are not cloistered by choice). Women can also do talks/reflections/etc. outside of the context of Mass for retreats and conferences. Women can be retreat directors. Women are spiritual directors.

As long as this is respected -- great. The opinions can go back and forth, but what the Church allows now stands. Alleluia.

ed: corrected the spelling of my username.

Edited August 30, 2011 by cmariadiaz

[MissyP89]

Pretty sure Red and I both gave the above post props at the same time. FWIW, the pastor of the parish where Cma serves is 1) very holy and 2) traditional. He just happens to believe, like the Church, that there is a place and a need for women to minister today.

By the way, the female altar servers I know (all in their 20s) do their jobs with more reverence and attention to detail than any man I've ever know, save one, and he's a seminarian.

[cmaD2006]

Thanks MissyP ... you're right my Pastor is traditional but open to women ministering in the Church today. Thanks (I was giving the wrong impression)!

I was meaning more like "ultraconservative" if that makes more sense, i.e. wanting to return to pre-Vatican II days. Edited August 30, 2011 by cmariadiaz

[vee]

I like what Cardinal Francis Arinze has to say

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWByiwHE4MY

[Lil Red]

[quote name='cmariadiaz' timestamp='1314744712' post='2297654']And as far as "if a traditional priest came on board and wanted to restore traditional guidelines" well he'd probably disband parish council. It wouldn't be the first time that that would be done. I'd definitely leave the parish then. I have never been tied to a parish along territorial lines, so why start now ?[/quote]
just an aside, as far as i understand canon law, a parish council does not have any authority to overrule a priest's decisions. now, some priests in some parishes have abdicated their responsibility to the parish council (i.e. "This is what the council decided, so this is what we'll do."). I think the provisions for parish councils are in canon law somewhere, not sure where though.

edit, [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P1T.HTM"]here it is[/url]:

CHAPTER V.
THE PASTORAL COUNCIL
Can. 511 In every diocese and to the extent that pastoral circumstances suggest it, a pastoral council is to be constituted which under the authority of the bishop investigates, considers, and proposes practical conclusions about those things which pertain to pastoral works in the diocese.
Can. 512 §1. A pastoral council consists of members of the Christian faithful who are in full communion with the Catholic Church—clerics, members of institutes of consecrated life, and especially laity—who are designated in a manner determined by the diocesan bishop.
§2. The Christian faithful who are designated to a pastoral council are to be selected in such a way that they truly reflect the entire portion of the people of God which constitutes the diocese, with consideration given to the different areas of the diocese, social conditions and professions, and the role which they have in the apostolate whether individually or joined with others.
§3. No one except members of the Christian faithful outstanding in firm faith, good morals, and prudence is to be designated to a pastoral council.
Can. 513 §1. A pastoral council is constituted for a period of time according to the prescripts of the statutes which are issued by the bishop.
§2. When the see is vacant, a pastoral council ceases.
Can. 514 §1. A pastoral council possesses only a consultative vote. It belongs to the diocesan bishop alone to convoke it according to the needs of the apostolate and to preside over it; it also belongs to him alone to make public what has been done in the council.
§2. The pastoral council is to be convoked at least once a year.CHAPTER V.

[url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P1U.HTM"]and also[/url]:

Can. 536 §1. If the diocesan bishop judges it opportune after he has heard the presbyteral council, a pastoral council is to be established in each parish, over which the pastor presides and in which the Christian faithful, together with those who share in pastoral care by virtue of their office in the parish, assist in fostering pastoral activity.
§2. A pastoral council possesses a consultative vote only and is governed by the norms established by the diocesan bishop.
Can. 537 In each parish there is to be a finance council which is governed, in addition to universal law, by norms issued by the diocesan bishop and in which the Christian faithful, selected according to these same norms, are to assist the pastor in the administration of the goods of the parish, without prejudice to the prescript of [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P1U.HTM#2.2.2.3.6.0.532"][b]⇒[/b][/url] can. 532.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Lil Red
found the document

[MissyP89]

Well, wanting only men on the altar isn't necessarily bad...it does help to educate them and make priesthood and what it means clearer to laity. BUT...

IMHO, the purity of the liturgy isn't decided by the reproductive bits of the people helping in varied capacities (except, of course, priesthood!). Purity of the liturgy is about intention and the desire to unite in worship.

Thanks for the props for yesterday's post, all. That was a pleasant surprise.

[Aloysius]

it seems no point that I have made has been replied to by those who support the practice of female altar servers. such is life. it's not about the role of women, it's about the role of the laity. it's not about the benefits to those who serve at the altar, those things are secondary; the altar server should serve the liturgy, the liturgy shouldn't serve the altar server.

"the Church" doesn't "allow it", individual dioceses are permitted to allow it. The Pope does not allow it in the diocese of Rome. it's a novel experimental practice. disallowing it would have no impact on whether women can lead talks or retreats or anything of the sort. it just isn't relevant. here's a great quote from an artical posted earlier:

[quote]
“Lay readers and extraordinary ministers serve the people,” he [Father Jerry Pokorsky] says. “The altar boy serves the priest. He’s the hands of the priest. He would be an apprentice, either in a real or symbolic way, for the priesthood.”[left][color=#000000][url="http://www.ncregister.com/site/article/boys_will_be_altar_boys/#ixzz1WYZU13QD"]http://www.ncregiste.../#ixzz1WYZU13QD[/url][/quote][/color]
[/left][left][color=#000000]one might call what forms among altar boys an "all boys' club" with some sort of negative connotation; but I would see it as more of a fraternity. fraternal fellowship is something sorely lacking in the Church and in society at large nowadays, because any attempt at some sort of all male group is attacked as an "all boys' club". are the Knight's of Columbus an "all boys' club" that need to let women in? why can't we have a few all boys' clubs; there should also be some all girls' clubs.[/color]
[/left]

Edited August 30, 2011 by Aloysius

[Lil Red]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1314739229' post='2297618']And marriages could use all the prayers they can get, these days![/quote]
yes, this is why i think in the prayers of petition, a prayer for marriage should be inserted.

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1314746024' post='2297665'] just an aside, as far as i understand canon law, a parish council does not have any authority to overrule a priest's decisions. now, some priests in some parishes have abdicated their responsibility to the parish council (i.e. "This is what the council decided, so this is what we'll do."). [/quote]

Yes definitely parish council is in an advisory role ... at my parish however we do kind of make a decision among all including the pastor (who oversees but doesn't run council). We all work in communion however ... I don't think we've ever had a meeting where we've strongly disagreed with the pastor. He does however, have the authority to appoint to council (our council is not elected but appointed ... the parishioners make suggestions and the pastor decides who should be on council).

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1314746330' post='2297670']why can't we have a few all boys' clubs; there should also be some all girls' clubs.[/color] [/left][/quote]

As long as the all girls' club isn't simply there to iron the altar linens, to clean up the Church, and to cook for Church functions ... sure.

BTW there is an all boys' club -- isn't that the Knight's of Columbus? (note -- they do a wonderful work for the Church ... I'm just pointing out that membership is restricted to men, just like there are groups out there where the membership is restricted to women).

I don't see the need to re-restrict the roles.

Edited August 30, 2011 by cmariadiaz

[Aloysius]

[quote name='MissyP89' timestamp='1314746225' post='2297668']
Well, wanting only men on the altar isn't necessarily bad...it does help to educate them and make priesthood and what it means clearer to laity. BUT...

IMHO, the purity of the liturgy isn't decided by the reproductive bits of the people helping in varied capacities (except, of course, priesthood!). Purity of the liturgy is about intention and the desire to unite in worship.
[/quote]
sexual identity is not just about "reproductive bits"; gender is a much more complex and intricate social reality than that. there is no difference between excepting the priesthood and excepting altar servers; altar servers are fulfilling the roles of clerics (acolytes), they are extensions of the priest. if the priest must be male for any reason, that selfsame reason applies to altar servers.

[quote]As long as the all girls' club isn't simply there to iron the altar linens, to clean up the Church, and to cook for Church functions ... sure. [/quote]
the all girls' club can do anything that other lay clubs can do. they simply shouldn't substitute for clerical roles within the liturgy. it's an exception to even allow lay boys to do so, but that exception has a very specific purpose: an apprentiship that fosters vocations to the priesthood by allowing the boys to begin to do the role of a minor cleric. and because they are potential future priests, the masculine symbolism of the priesthood is not unravelled in the liturgy.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Aloysius