Female Altar Servers And Vocations

[MargaretTeresa]

[quote name='LaPetiteSoeur' timestamp='1314654175' post='2297058']
I also think there needs to be a culture that promotes vocations. Families should discuss vocations--to the priesthood, religious life, marriage, the single life. Parishes should promote them; one of the best things about my family's new parish (though I still miss my home parish) is that EVERY mass there is an intention for "an increase to vocations to the priesthood AND RELIGIOUS LIFE and for all those discerning that they will do God's Will." All too often it's just the priesthood.
[/quote]

Our intention used to be just priesthood... that got changed when I told Fr J I am discerning.

[Papist]

[quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1314649543' post='2297023']

But a very valid point.
[/quote]
Seriously?

[Papist]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1314651563' post='2297035']
did you even go to her post and read the whole thing?
[/quote]
I'm sorry. I thought the quote was from the article?

[Lil Red]

yes, but i didn't quote the whole article.

[dominicansoul]

i prefer male-only sanctuaries, but seeing that the Holy Father allowed females to altar serve, i have no objections, just a personal preference...

[sixpence]

I think this is funny we are having this debate again:
my 2 cents: I served for 10 years and I did get A LOT out of it... but i understand the idea of having all guys... and if they can get all guys let them do it.. but i dunno if it will happen in some places

[LinaSt.Cecilia2772]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1314651090' post='2297034']

Hi Lina,

Thank you for that post, it was very informative. I'm just curious what your opinion is on the number of vocations coming from traditional parishes. There are parishes that follow the pre-Vatican II guidelines strictly, e.g. only Altar boys, Liturgy in Latin, etc, and they produce not only more seminarians, but more female vocations for religious life. If not allowing girls to be servers is such a hindrance, why do you suppose these parishes have more vocations?

Lastly, how would you feel if the Priest at your parishes wanted to restore the traditional norm? Would you be supportive? Being that you are in a parish council, would you ever suggest restoring the traditional norms? And how do you suppose your parish council would react to such a suggestion?

In Christ,
Mort
[/quote]

I dont know about other parishes that have female altar servers vocation numbers, but speaking for my parish and for some other parishes i help out at there have been a number of female vocations to the religious life. I dont think its fair to just limit vocation statistics between parishes with Traditional or Post Vatican II practices. There have been vocations either way.

And no i dont think i would support that proposition because coming from my own experiences and for what the church needs, I wouldn't want to feel that I had an effect on taking away possible vocations to the religious life for young women. Just like we discern for marriage, consecrated life, religious life, or the priesthood we need to think about how God is calling those vocations to be carried out by certain people; including servers, readers, EMHC, etc. Each of us has a calling, and each ministry, whether it's a male or female performing it, has an effect on our vocation.

How my parish would react would be a different story. I go to an inner city parish. We have parishioners from pretty much everywhere, and being such a diverse community we do have alot of opinions in the mix. That being said, i think the parish as a whole would have a negative point of view on the whole thing since women do outnumber the men in most of the ministries. Since this is the case (and because i know my pastor and associate pastors very well) bringing the traditional norm back is out of the question. Of course since we do have alot of opinions, some of the parishioners would want the traditional practices back, but others wouldn't.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1314668762' post='2297236']
i prefer male-only sanctuaries, but seeing that the Holy Father allowed females to altar serve, i have no objections, just a personal preference...
[/quote]
actually, the Holy Father does not allow females to altar serve in his diocese. each bishop is permitted to decide whether or not to allow it, the Pope himself does not allow it. nor did John Paul II.

"a male only sanctuary"... I am not sure exactly what he meant by that, but I think it likely that he was talking in particular about being at the altar, as it were. as far as I know, actually, EMHCs are actually not supposed to enter the sanctuary (I remember a few years back my novus ordo parish started having them approach and stand in a line just outside of the sanctuary, I'm pretty sure that was in response to a rubric but I'll have to dig around to see if there is actually one), so the question is whether the ambo (where the readings are read from) is "part of the sanctuary" as it were. I would guess that Fr. Z does not really have the ambo in mind when he says a "male-only" sanctuary, but I can't speak for him. personally, my priority would lie in making the sanctuary male-only with the possible exception of the ambo and the role of a sacristin, and I think that EMHCs (male or female) should not enter the sanctuary at all.

the question of readers who replace lectors is a different question, IMO, considering that the readings are not read at the altar in the Novus Ordo. it is similar to singers who replace cantors. lector and cantor indeed were once clerical roles, but both roles (especially that of cantor) actually can have a proper connection to the laity itself (since the choir sings what the people are to sing). it is the gospel itself that must absolutely be proclaimed through the ministerial priesthood; the epistles and Old Testament Readings, these things being read from one layman to another is not necessarily bad for the liturgy. I would reserve my judgment on that issue, because I could see a valid point to be made in favor of having the clergy read those readings to the laity (in the person of the priest, a deacon, or some permanently instituted lector), so that the symbolism of the laity coming to receive the word of God from those who represent Christ to them so that they can bring it out into the world is more beautifully expressed (this is at least expressed in the reading of the Gospel to the laity by the clergy), but it's not as essential a point as things regarding the actual events taking place on the altar, which are direct acts of Jesus Christ and thus those engaging in them should be the ministerial priesthood and its extensions and NOT laity.

[MissyP89]

This is just a separate thought and opinion that I know I'm going to get eaten for.

IF we return to the traditional norms, then I think parishes have to step up about catechizing these boys about what it [i]means[/i] to serve the altar. As someone else said, most of the time, they're only doing it because they're forced to by family and generally don't want to be there at all.

I fear without the proper disposition and education, parishes with only male servers could find those boys turning haughty and thinking they are "better" than girls. In reality, a male server should serve with humility and reverence for the call he is responding to. While those roles are meant for men, there is plenty of potential for it to become an elitist -- forgive me -- "boys club" that does more harm for the Church and vocations than good.

Of course, I am looking at this only in the context of the OP: whether or not all-male servers promote vocations.

Edited August 30, 2011 by MissyP89

[Lil Red]

[quote name='MissyP89' timestamp='1314677763' post='2297403']
This is just a separate thought and opinion that I know I'm going to get eaten for.

IF we return to the traditional norms, then I think parishes have to step up about catechizing these boys about what it [i]means[/i] to serve the altar. As someone else said, most of the time, they're only doing it because they're forced to by family and generally don't want to be there at all.

I fear without the proper disposition and education, parishes with only male servers could find those boys turning haughty and thinking they are "better" than girls. In reality, a male server should serve with humility and reverence for the call he is responding to. While those roles are meant for men, there is plenty of potential for it to become an elitist -- forgive me -- "boys club" that does more harm for the Church and vocations than good.

Of course, I am looking at this only in the context of the OP: whether or not all-male servers promote vocations.
[/quote]
Fr. Longenecker had a great post awhile back about what he tells his altar servers. I'll see if I can't dig it up.

Actually, this is correct: [url="http://www.crisismagazine.com/2011/what-i-tell-my-altar-servers"]http://www.crisismag...y-altar-servers[/url]

and his follow-up post on girl altar servers: http://gkupsidedown.blogspot.com/2011/04/girl-altar-servers.html

Edited August 30, 2011 by Lil Red

[Archaeology cat]

Al - I'm learning a lot here, thanks.

Missy - I agree.

[mortify]

Peace Cmariadiza,

[quote name='cmariadiaz' timestamp='1314655430' post='2297082']
I'm not Lina ... but I'll answer from my point of view (I'm on parish council at a parish). Council I don't think would be supportive. I also think the priests at my parish would not make that suggestion at all. Finally -- I wouldn't support it.[/quote]

That's what I would expect from most parishes. I'm just curious, how does the parish council authority weight out with that of the priest? So if for instance a traditional priest were installed, and he wanted to retore the traditional guidelines, could the parish council over power him? And on flip side, if a liberal priest were in a traditional parish, could the traditional parish council over rule him?

[quote]Women have been more recently allowed to take on additional roles that men were only permitted to take. For example -- lectors, eucharistic ministers.[/quote]

Well as you are probably aware, those roles were restricted to Priests, and in rare instances deacons. So basically all the men of a given parish were also excluded from such roles.

[quote]If the Church went backwards I would have a hard time with it.[/quote]

Why is that? Are women strongly empowered in the church by this? And is that an important issue in decision making when it comes to discipline?


In Christ,
Mort

[Papist]

Interesting real examples.

[url="http://www.ncregister.com/site/article/boys_will_be_altar_boys/"]http://www.ncregister.com/site/article/boys_will_be_altar_boys/[/url]

[InPersonaChriste]

I was never aloud to altar serve even when asked by the woman who shedules them. My parents even at their young stages of understanding the Catholic faith never felt that it was a womans place to be up on the altar with the priest (this was before they even knew that missing Sunday mass was a mortal sin and things like that). I am certain that men should only be up their because men can be priests and women cannot. Unless of course their were no boys in the church (which I have seen happen).

I know their was a stage where I wanted to serve with the priest, but I got over that phase quite quickly. I still feel that in my heart it is not a womens place to serve, but I thank you La Petitie Souer for giving another angle to this debate.

Oh and on another note, in one of our churches they have only old people and father serves alone. But when men come he is greatly thankful for altar boys.

Hence they were called altar boys, not altar servers.....

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1314638370' post='2296946']and a lot of dioceses do an awful job of promoting vocations to the religious life for women - just sayin'. It's all 'vocations to the priesthood'.[/quote]
On the one hand, I kind of get why they do it, because it's not just for vocations to the priesthood, but for the diocesan priesthood. At least where I have been they don't really do anything for Religious Priests, and most orders that I've heard of have their own vocations directors, so it kind of makes sense that the focus of the diocesan vocations director is vocations for the diocese. That being said, with less exposure to religious orders in general and therefore less awareness of such things, SOMEONE needs to make an effort make sure people are aware of their options, so to speak, and I think it's very wrong for a bishop to not allow a vocations director to address Religious vocations is also wrong.

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1314654491' post='2297067'] that's great. i wish more parishes would include something to the effect of "For holy marriages" or something more poetic sounding (lol) because where do you think the majority of vocations to the religious life and the priesthood came from? From good, holy, stable, marriages![/quote]
And marriages could use all the prayers they can get, these days!