Lil Red Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 and a lot of dioceses do an awful job of promoting vocations to the religious life for women - just sayin'. It's all 'vocations to the priesthood'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faithcecelia Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1314638370' post='2296946'] and a lot of dioceses do an awful job of promoting vocations to the religious life for women - just sayin'. It's all 'vocations to the priesthood'. [/quote] Definately. I saw articles about vocation groups, discernment weekends, 'have you thought about' etc etc for the priesthood for months and months before finding a come and see for women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 (edited) hmmm no one is interested in my thoughts I suppose. lol, ah well. I think the idea that everyone must have a role in the mass is part of the problem in our liturgical mindset. very few lay people, male or female, should be having a role at the altar in the liturgy outside of simply being a lay person. when one asks what other role we should give girls to do in the liturgy, we are making a mistake in what we see as the true active participation of the laity. having laypeople do anything at the altar itself is the exception, not the rule. Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion are only supposed to be used when absolutely necessary, ie they're to be avoided as much as possible. the practice of lay altar boys in place of acolytes is an exception that the Church has embraced for very specific purposes and reasons. one of those reasons is that, so long as they are male, they maintain the masculine symbolic image of the priesthood on the altar. the other is that they are able to have an "apprenticeship" as it were, and see the priesthood closely enough to consider it for their future lives. neither of those reasons applies to lay girls, so the answer should be either to institute a lot of acolytes to assist at the altar, or to return to having the only laity assisting at the altar be altar boys. IMO at least. when it comes to outreach for female vocations, I agree that not nearly enough is done. both at the parish level, and IMO among many actual religious communities. so many of our womens' religious communities have unravelled to the point of being unrecognizable in society, it's as if nuns have disappeared from the face of the earth. there are many good ones left that are capable of attracting vocations to them, but so many of the ones that no longer live in any kind of community life but are just scattered all over the place without any habit, blending in among the laity, that it's really hard to show young people what the religious vocation should be all about. to be a sister in some religious communities seems to amount to vowing to remain a single social worker with one or two female roommates. anyway, as much as should be done, one of the things should not be altar girls, IMO. the cathedral in phoenix that recently restricted altar service to boys only has offered girls the role of sacristins. that might be an acceptable solution, I suppose. Edited August 29, 2011 by Aloysius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 here's what i don't understand. if you go to [url="http://wdtprs.com/blog/"]Fr. Z's blog[/url], on the right-hand side, he has a poll. The question is: [i]Does an all-male [b]sanctuary[/b] foster vocations to the priesthood?[/i] Now, as far as I know, the priest at this cathedral re-instated all-boy altar serving, not restricted females from being in the sanctuary AT ALL. From what I get from the poll question is that Fr. Z is asking if there should be no females at all serving in the sanctuary. No women readers. No women extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist (leaving aside, for the moment, the need for them, kthnxbai). No women sacristans. No women emcees (or whatever they're called). Erin Manning at [url="http://redcardigan.blogspot.com/2011/08/male-only-sanctuary-yes-or-no.html"]And Sometimes Tea[/url] picked up on this, and I agree with her. [quote]But that's not really what the question is asking. It is asking whether an "all-male sanctuary" fosters vocations to the priesthood. As in, no women on the altar. No female lectors unless they can read from somewhere other than the altar (if that's even permitted, which I don't know). No females making announcements before or after Mass; no females serving as Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion (which would be one way of getting rid of EMHCs, as the handful of men still willing to show up would not be enough to increase the speed at which Communion is distributed, let alone to offer Communion under both species). No women, period, in the sanctuary, just like back in the "good old days," when women were only permitted up there outside of Mass to clean. (Of course, that's where I do bristle, just a little. If the Church in her wisdom decides to let only men be present in the sanctuary, that is absolutely fine and dandy with me, so long as the men also take over all of the responsibilities of sweeping and dusting and removing candle-wax from floors and furnishings and washing and caring for the linens and washing the stained-glass windows and polishing the wood and vacuuming or cleaning carpets or rugs and decorating for the liturgical seasons as appropriate and everything else that needs doing. "No women in the sanctuary" should NOT mean "No women in the sanctuary except when there's 'women's work' to be done and nobody is going to see them doing it and get offended that they are there." You can't have it both ways, gentlemen, in my opinion.) [/quote] What he is asking is definitely different from 'Should only boys be altar servers?' and I don't know if he did that on purpose or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 [quote](Of course, that's where I do bristle, just a little. If the Church in her wisdom decides to let only men be present in the sanctuary, that is absolutely fine and dandy with me, so long as the men also take over all of the responsibilities of sweeping and dusting and removing candle-wax from floors and furnishings and washing and caring for the linens and washing the stained-glass windows and polishing the wood and vacuuming or cleaning carpets or rugs and decorating for the liturgical seasons as appropriate and everything else that needs doing. "No women in the sanctuary" should NOT mean "No women in the sanctuary except when there's 'women's work' to be done and nobody is going to see them doing it and get offended that they are there." You can't have it both ways, gentlemen, in my opinion.)[/quote] Now that is a wonderful and mature attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faithcecelia Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1314648857' post='2297017'] Now that is a wonderful and mature attitude. [/quote] But a very valid point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 [quote name='LinaSt.Cecilia2772' timestamp='1314571464' post='2296564'] All of that came from the call to serve, and i think it would hinder other women's abilities to hear the calls God has for them if there were no female altar servers. [/quote] Hi Lina, Thank you for that post, it was very informative. I'm just curious what your opinion is on the number of vocations coming from traditional parishes. There are parishes that follow the pre-Vatican II guidelines strictly, e.g. only Altar boys, Liturgy in Latin, etc, and they produce not only more seminarians, but more female vocations for religious life. If not allowing girls to be servers is such a hindrance, why do you suppose these parishes have more vocations? Lastly, how would you feel if the Priest at your parishes wanted to restore the traditional norm? Would you be supportive? Being that you are in a parish council, would you ever suggest restoring the traditional norms? And how do you suppose your parish council would react to such a suggestion? In Christ, Mort Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1314648857' post='2297017']Now that is a wonderful and mature attitude.[/quote] did you even go to her post and read the whole thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaPetiteSoeur Posted August 29, 2011 Author Share Posted August 29, 2011 I also think there needs to be a culture that promotes vocations. Families should discuss vocations--to the priesthood, religious life, marriage, the single life. Parishes should promote them; one of the best things about my family's new parish (though I still miss my home parish) is that EVERY mass there is an intention for "an increase to vocations to the priesthood AND RELIGIOUS LIFE and for all those discerning that they will do God's Will." All too often it's just the priesthood. This church has had quite a few vocations and it's not a Latin Rite and girls serve. There also are around 6000 families. A real way to foster vocations to both? Have activities for (gasp!) both girls and boys that foster vocations--maybe the pastor comes to talk, or the church gets a religious sister to visit every few years. How about a support group/discerning group for all those discerning (not just the men)? How about people actually talk about vocations? How on earth can little kids get to know about priests and nuns if no one tells them about them and they never meet any? Maybe I'm just whiny or maybe for feminist than I thought I was, but I do not want to go back to the days when it was men only in the sanctuary. If Papa Benny wants to do it, I'll listen to him. But currently, I like the fact that I can proclaim the word of God. I also like the fact that I can be a Eucharistic minister. I also like that I don't just have to dust! (but dUSt is pretty cool. I don't like the other kind of dust) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 [quote name='LaPetiteSoeur' timestamp='1314654175' post='2297058'] I also think there needs to be a culture that promotes vocations. Families should discuss vocations--to the priesthood, religious life, marriage, the single life. Parishes should promote them; one of the best things about my family's new parish (though I still miss my home parish) is that EVERY mass there is an intention for "an increase to vocations to the priesthood AND RELIGIOUS LIFE and for all those discerning that they will do God's Will." [/quote] that's great. i wish more parishes would include something to the effect of "For holy marriages" or something more poetic sounding (lol) because where do you think the majority of vocations to the religious life and the priesthood came from? From good, holy, stable, marriages! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaPetiteSoeur Posted August 29, 2011 Author Share Posted August 29, 2011 [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1314654491' post='2297067'] that's great. i wish more parishes would include something to the effect of "For holy marriages" or something more poetic sounding (lol) because where do you think the majority of vocations to the religious life and the priesthood came from? From good, holy, stable, marriages! [/quote] Archbishop Timothy Dolan said something like that in a speech. I completely agree! I wish I could find that speech, though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1314654491' post='2297067'] that's great. i wish more parishes would include something to the effect of "For holy marriages" or something more poetic sounding (lol) because where do you think the majority of vocations to the religious life and the priesthood came from? From good, holy, stable, marriages! [/quote] Unfortunately, that is being undone by pushing "single" as a vocation: [quote name='LaPetiteSoeur' timestamp='1314654175' post='2297058'] I also think there needs to be a culture that promotes vocations. Families should discuss vocations--to the priesthood, religious life, marriage, the single life. Parishes should promote them; one of the best things about my family's new parish (though I still miss my home parish) is that EVERY mass there is an intention for "an increase to vocations to the priesthood AND RELIGIOUS LIFE and for all those discerning that they will do God's Will." All too often it's just the priesthood. This church has had quite a few vocations and it's not a Latin Rite and girls serve. There also are around 6000 families. A real way to foster vocations to both? Have activities for (gasp!) both girls and boys that foster vocations--maybe the pastor comes to talk, or the church gets a religious sister to visit every few years. How about a support group/discerning group for all those discerning (not just the men)? How about people actually talk about vocations? How on earth can little kids get to know about priests and nuns if no one tells them about them and they never meet any? Maybe I'm just whiny or maybe for feminist than I thought I was, but I do not want to go back to the days when it was men only in the sanctuary. If Papa Benny wants to do it, I'll listen to him. But currently, I like the fact that I can proclaim the word of God. I also like the fact that I can be a Eucharistic minister. I also like that I don't just have to dust! (but dUSt is pretty cool. I don't like the other kind of dust) [/quote] "Single life" is not a "vocation" except in the context of consecrated life. If anything, it is robbing from the vocations actually defined by the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmaD2006 Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 [quote name='mortify' timestamp='1314651090' post='2297034'] Lastly, how would you feel if the Priest at your parishes wanted to restore the traditional norm? Would you be supportive? Being that you are in a parish council, would you ever suggest restoring the traditional norms? And how do you suppose your parish council would react to such a suggestion? [/quote] I'm not Lina ... but I'll answer from my point of view (I'm on parish council at a parish). Council I don't think would be supportive. I also think the priests at my parish would not make that suggestion at all. Finally -- I wouldn't support it. Women have been more recently allowed to take on additional roles that men were only permitted to take. For example -- lectors, eucharistic ministers. I remember when I first started attending Church hearing that girls were finally allowed to serve as altar servers? I kept thinking "what took them so long" since I remembered as a young girl seeing this first happen in the protestant church. If the Church went backwards I would have a hard time with it. But as it was quoted in a previous quote then at that point the housekeeping (including the cooking for Church events) should be then left to the men as well. Then I'd have less of an issue with it.[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1314655318' post='2297079'] Unfortunately, that is being undone by pushing "single" as a vocation: "Single life" is not a "vocation" except in the context of consecrated life. If anything, it is robbing from the vocations actually defined by the Church. [/quote] No I wholeheartedly disagree ... I think it is part of the richness of the Church. But ... that's not the purpose of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 (edited) [quote name='cmariadiaz' timestamp='1314655430' post='2297082'] No I wholeheartedly disagree ... I think it is part of the richness of the Church. But ... that's not the purpose of this thread. [/quote] Please cite official Church teaching. Edited August 29, 2011 by Norseman82 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmaD2006 Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1314655544' post='2297085'] Please cite official Church teaching. [/quote] In another thread ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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