Modesty For Men

[Lil Red]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1314375686' post='2295206']
Please remember that while it is the responsibility of guys to maintain custody of their eyes, many men's wills and consciences are so eroded and malformed that even if they are trying to regain a sense of purity [b]they may find themselves doing things involuntarily based solely on the dress of a woman in their presence.[/b] [/quote]
sorry, that's b.s.

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1314375686' post='2295206']EDIT: Don't think for an instant that I am saying men shouldn't be held accountable for this stuff, it has to happen it's the only way it can stop. But you also can't expect me to believe that if you're going to hold men accountable that women should be able to get away with wearing whatever they want. But I'm sure you guys already know this. It just bugs me that people say "So it's the woman's fault?" as if the answer should always be "No," in every case.[/quote]
not saying that women/girls don't have a responsibility. i have a problem with statements like tinytherese's that seem to say, "Women need to step it up. This is all women's faults because they've been dressing like that." umm, no.

look, let's be real here. most teenage girls don't know any better - this is how the culture is, this is how it is presented to teenage girls to dress - and especially if parents don't think it's wrong, then why would girls growing up think it is wrong? we're not going to be changing their hearts by walking around going, "Because you dress so slutty, you need to cover up so I (meaning a guy) don't sin."

[Lil Red]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1314376415' post='2295211']Then have a problem with it. I'm also saying "Men need to stop it." Or in general "People need to stop with the whole sex crazed culture. Right now!" You want people to stop abortion too? They don't do it wilfully, desiring the blood of innocents. They think it's just lifeless tissue.[/quote]
umm, what? this makes no sense.

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1314376415' post='2295211']I'm not advocating for some kind of anti-feminist paternalistic gulag here. I'm simply stating, from a guy's point of view, the wish that EVERYBODY would see the truth and abandon the culture of lust. I think it's especially imperative for Catholic men and women who do know better.[/quote]
okay? i'm not arguing against that?

[arfink]

So I don't understand your position. I understand your concern about my use of the word "involuntary" as that generally has a stronger meaning than what I'm referring to, though a couple psychologist I know would use it in that way. What other word do you use for "Actions I do without the full consent of my will/reason?"

I wonder if you just find my choice of words poor or if you just won't believe that addiction to sex/lust is a real addiction, one that comes with both a psychological and chemical level of addiction. (in the case of people who also struggle with masturbation, which I am guessing is most/all of guys who have addiction to lustful thoughts) Sure, this can be overcome, and it's not a license to sin, as I have said. But it's real, and I have it on the authority of multiple confessors and a couple spiritual directors that it does reduce culpability. Which means the acts, in a certain sense, could be considered involuntary. Unless you have another word that's better. I understand it's not the best word choice.

[Lisa]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1314375089' post='2295200']

This is actually extremely interesting to me. Something that I have not heard mentioned at all before. See, this kind of emotional support thing is absolutely critical for a good, solid friendship in my experience. And with guys who you haven't managed to establish a solid friendship with it can actually be really useful to delve into this stuff as a way to build something and strengthen it. I didn't know it worked the opposite way with women.

"Now don't take me out of context but, a guy can be immodest when he spends a large amount of time with a woman he is not friends with."
This makes me worried that if I get married or get a girlfriend I will never be allowed to make friends again. No, seriously. Can you explain this a little bit more?
[/quote]

AMDG will probably come back and answer this better, but I'd like share a few experiences as a woman. The perspective of women is different than men (as clearly you understand), and for many women, having a guy tell you he will "be there for you no matter what" and all of of a sudden spending more time with you might make many women think that there is something more there. We long to give our hearts fully to someone, it's how we're made.

For men, lust seems to be centered around objectifying women's bodies with the thought of physical pleasure in mind. For women, though, lust can be emotional. The "I want" mentality- wanting to use men for emotional comfort or a physical connection- is still putting personal pleasure about the good of another person. Lust is a terrible twisting of love. As men and women, we crave love in different way; therefore, lust happens a little differently too. Also, women connect physical intimacy with emotional closeness, so sometime women begin to think "what if" about even the most heartfelt friendships. "What would it be like to kiss him," etc.

So, whether you have a girlfriend/wife or not, relationships with women should be a little guarded. This isn't to say that men and women can't/should not be friends, but rather, it's essential to set those boundaries of time and place to avoid the occasion to sin by either person.

[arfink]

That's a good explanation. Thank you.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1314377346' post='2295234']
So I don't understand your position. I understand your concern about my use of the word "involuntary" as that generally has a stronger meaning than what I'm referring to, though a couple psychologist I know would use it in that way. What other word do you use for "Actions I do without the full consent of my will/reason?"[/quote]
i don't have a problem with the word involuntary. no, i have a problem with you blaming your sinful actions on a woman, just because she may be dressed differently than you'd like, just because she is near to you. What is sinful for you is not sinful for someone else.

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1314377346' post='2295234']I wonder if you just find my choice of words poor or if you just won't believe that addiction to sex/lust is a real addiction, one that comes with both a psychological and chemical level of addiction. (in the case of people who also struggle with masturbation, which I am guessing is most/all of guys who have addiction to lustful thoughts) Sure, this can be overcome, and it's not a license to sin, as I have said. But it's real, and I have it on the authority of multiple confessors and a couple spiritual directors that it does reduce culpability. Which means the acts, in a certain sense, could be considered involuntary. Unless you have another word that's better. I understand it's not the best word choice.[/quote]
i don't disbelieve that there are addictions to lust/sex.

[LaPetiteSoeur]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1314375686' post='2295206']

Please remember that while it is the responsibility of guys to maintain custody of their eyes, many men's wills and consciences are so eroded and malformed that even if they are trying to regain a sense of purity they may find themselves doing things involuntarily based solely on the dress of a woman in their presence.
[/quote]

Would it not also be right to say that many women's consciences are just as malformed, and so they dress immodestly? So if it's from that view, it's the guy's fault.

Actually, I don't think it's anyone's fault. If someone can't look at any kind of female and not feel lustful thoughts, then there's a problem that goes BEYOND what someone wears. I never understood the argument that women should dress uber modestly (skirts only) just so guys wouldn't think "bad thoughts." If someone sees a girl in modest jeans and can't control themselves, they need to seek counseling. Plain and simple.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1314376415' post='2295211']Then have a problem with it. I'm also saying "Men need to stop it." Or in general "People need to stop with the whole sex crazed culture. Right now!" You want people to stop abortion too? They don't do it wilfully, desiring the blood of innocents. They think it's just lifeless tissue.[/quote]
so you are equating abortion (which is always an automatic excommunication, regardless if you knew it was sinful or not) with a woman dressing (according to you) immodestly?

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1314376415' post='2295211']Oh, and the heroin allegory is my way of alluding to the guys who are trying to step it up and fight their addictions. It really is like that in the mind of a man. I would know. I live that life. It's not like I can expect every woman in society to respect that struggle, but is it really so misogynistic of me to wish that they would?[/quote]
uh, yeah. it's your problem. it's not every woman's problem that you lust after them. again, what is sinful to you is not sinful to another guy. jesus_lol shared awhile back in another thread how he isn't tempting by girls in bikinis (growing up in an area where girls wear them a lot, i think he said). s

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1314376415' post='2295211']I'm simply stating, from a guy's point of view, the wish that EVERYBODY would see the truth and abandon the culture of lust. I think it's especially imperative for Catholic men and women who do know better.[/quote]
i don't disagree. but that is an age-old problem, going back to the Garden. remember that Catholics who know better are definitely in the minority in this country.

i am just trying to caution against the pendulum swinging wildly in the opposite direction from a society of anything-goes sex to a society that represses sex. neither is healthy.

[arfink]

OK, so let me be clear here: culpability for immodesty only happens if the woman is AWARE that immodesty is an occasion of sin for men. If she's clueless she's not to blame, but it doesn't make her exposure any less of an occasion of sin.

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1314378603' post='2295267']
i don't have a problem with the word involuntary. no, i have a problem with you blaming your sinful actions on a woman, just because she may be dressed differently than you'd like, just because she is near to you. What is sinful for you is not sinful for someone else.
[/quote]

Was I saying I blame it on her? Saying someone is possibly culpable does not transfer blame. I am still to blame for my own actions. I am still to blame for my own misformation of conscience. Sharing of culpability does not equal transference of culpability. The drunk who binges because I leave him alcohol is still guilty! But I am allowing myself to share in his guilt if I tempt him on purpose!

However, indecent exposure is much different that leaving alcohol around. If an alcoholic wants to avoid occasions of sin like liquor stores or restaurants where they serve it he certainly can. He doesn't have to worry about every person on the street carrying a 6 pack of beer that says "Please, have one if you want it." For a man tempted to lust, merely being out in public can prove overwhelming. This is a much bigger and more common problem.

Is every woman who dresses immodestly to blame? No. Did I say that was the case? I don't think I tried to. My apologies if I did.

[arfink]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1314379019' post='2295280']
i am just trying to caution against the pendulum swinging wildly in the opposite direction from a society of anything-goes sex to a society that represses sex. neither is healthy.
[/quote]

OK, I have not given any recommendation about what I want to see (or don't want to see) women wear. This is rapidly degrading into a flame war.

But for my final response in this thread I will add this: asking men and women to dress modestly is not a repression of sex in my opinion. You don't need to wear it on your sleeve to keep from being repressed.

Edited August 26, 2011 by arfink

[Basilisa Marie]

I find it's a whole lot easier to say, "Girl, go put on some clothes" than say "Boy, stop lusting!" Both are necessary, but it's easy to put too much emphasis on the "easier" solution.

But as far as modesty for men goes, I definitely agree with the emotional part. There's nothing wrong with being close friends with a girl. I mean, most of my friends when I was younger were male. But if a guy does things to make her feel "special," like any different than a normal guy friend, then that can get the girl thinking that there's something more.

[MithLuin]

A visit to a college campus in warm weather (like, now) will reveal that there are a lot of girls who wear ridiculously skimpy clothing and think nothing of it. Is it 'their fault' if a guy lusts after them as they sprawl out on the campus green leaving little to the imagination?

Well....I think they're both at fault. I don't think women with any self respect should dress that way (think...clubbing clothes), and I don't think men should be oogling them.

I mean...even the Rolling Stones get it!
o/~ I see the girls walk by dressed in their summer clothes
I have to turn my head until my darkness goes o/~

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rJeYZkjmAk[/media]

There is something wrong with the world and things are truly turned upside down when Mick Jagger of all people can tell Catholics anything at all about modesty! [Oh, and as for, 'what would be immodest dress on a guy?' I'd say 'Don't dress like the Rolling Stones' is good advice. ]

If your audience is female, you teach them about covering up so they won't be disrespected, and establish some basic ground rules (how can you expect a 14 year old girl to understand what a tight shirt on her does to a guy?) If your audience is male, you teach them about custody of the eyes and looking away when presented with a tempting scene. It's the second look, the stare, that gets guys in trouble.

In other words, both sexes must be responsible if we are to build a society where people are truly respected as human persons and not treated as objects. This is far from a one way street. Women who wear burqas are raped all the time. Pointing fingers doesn't solve the problem; stepping up and taking responsibility for our own actions does.

So, to the question, 'Should women wear less revealing clothing? or Should men take care what they look at?' the answer is....'Yes.' No one's off the hook, here.

Women can take steps to improve their safety from sexual assault, but this does not make it 'their fault' if they become victims. The guy is the one doing the sexual assaulting, yes? So he's at fault.

Edited August 26, 2011 by MithLuin

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1314375089' post='2295200']
"Now don't take me out of context but, a guy can be immodest when he spends a large amount of time with a woman he is not friends with."
This makes me worried that if I get married or get a girlfriend I will never be allowed to make friends again. No, seriously. Can you explain this a little bit more?
[/quote]
The reason I said don't take me out of context there was because the idea I was trying to convey was bigger than a single sentence. I was introducing the idea with the sentence you quoted and then explained the idea in subsequent sentences because the idea has a fair amount of nuance because each situation is going to vary because people are different. The whole idea is:
[quote name='Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam' timestamp='1314339489' post='2295121']
Now don't take me out of context, but a guy can be immodest when he spends a large amount of time with a woman he is not friends with. If there is an established relationship or solid friendship one can be supportive yes; however, constantly being emotionally supportive for a woman, talking to her about things that are very close to her heart (especially events that have hurt her), and even praying with her about them can be very immodest if one does not intend to seek a relationship with her. Such events, while they should not be shied away from lest you hurt the other person, should be used as an opportunity to push the other person towards the proper support. The sharing of these events do create a natural bond between people especially if one is consistently an emotional support and help and often shares things about themselves to the other person who has been having trouble. For guys, this can be seen as just being a good friend and helping them through a tough time, but for women, they often see something more. Guys can be immodest emotionally in this way.
[/quote]

Lisa does a good job of explaining things in her post (much better than I could since she is a woman and knows first hand) #19. You say "with guys who you haven't managed to establish a solid friendship with it can actually be really useful to delve into this stuff as a way to build something and strengthen it. I didn't know it worked the opposite way with women." It is not an opposite way with women just a difference of emphasis, an asymmetry between the sexes in the way we experience friendships with the opposite sex. Women want to be cherished, know they are valued and respected, and want consistency out of man. Is it hard then to see why when men give that impression of cherished friendship and constantly being there for them for emotional support that it can be hard for them? It is not that it is the opposite just different. Close friendships between men and women are possible without romantic attraction (or at least that romantic attraction isn't a problem for); it is just that they are rare. Both parties must be clear on where they stand in relation to the other and what relationships both parties have with other people. Though the main trick is encouraging friends not to become dependent on you or confide too much too quickly and instead to help the other find support not just from you. (Lisa does a much better job with this topic sorry). Emotional modesty is something men must be more aware of.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1314376451' post='2295212']

look, let's be real here. most teenage girls don't know any better - this is how the culture is, this is how it is presented to teenage girls to dress - and especially if parents don't think it's wrong, then why would girls growing up think it is wrong? we're not going to be changing their hearts by walking around going, "Because you dress so slutty, you need to cover up so I (meaning a guy) don't sin."
[/quote]

ok, i have an issue with this statement. what competent women/teenager does not know they are dressing slutty when they wear short shorts and there butt is nearly hanging out? or who wears her pantaloons low so her thong hangs out? or wears a shirt so revealing her breasts almost fall out? or a women who goes running in shorts and only a sports bra? or women who wears a skirt which if they bent over we would all see here underwear if she was wearing any?

yes, little girls who are in middle school and younger don't know better. i find it really hard to believe a teenager and a grown women does not know the difference between immodest dress and modest dress. cause i don;t really see women dressed like this when they work in an office.

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1314379019' post='2295280']



uh, yeah. it's your problem. it's not every woman's problem that you lust after them. again, what is sinful to you is not sinful to another guy. jesus_lol shared awhile back in another thread how he isn't tempting by girls in bikinis (growing up in an area where girls wear them a lot, i think he said). s


[/quote]have you ever seen a canadien woman in a bikini? I wouldn't be tempted either :l