The Blessed Virgin Mary

[AudreyGrace]

I understand that there are different attitudes towards Mary, the mother of Jesus, between Protestants and Catholics. I know why Catholics love her so much, but I never understood why Protestants and others do not feel the need to have some type of devotion, friendship, or high respect for her. If you aren't aboard the Mary train, please explain to me why. If you'd like to know why I view having a relationship with Mary and greatly honoring her is totally necessary, feel free to ask. But, out of respect for the OP, please first explain why you feel Mary isn't the bees knees, etc. Hopefully this can also clear up confusion on how one group of Christians views the other's prospective on Mary and so forth.

[faithcecelia]

Interestingly, my [i]very[/i] Protestant mother has a strong devotion to Mary, and her beliefs about her are very catholic. Actually, she also believes in the Real Presence even though she attends a church that does not have communion (or baptism even) at all! I think she is afraid of being Catholic, of crossing that invisible line between the faith she has always known and been taught, and the faith she has deep in her heart. I pray she will convert

[Byzantine]

From [url="http://www.angelfire.com/pa3/OldWorldBasic/Rosary.htm"]http://www.angelfire.com/pa3/OldWorldBasic/Rosary.htm[/url]:
[quote]
[b]More on the Rosary[/b] [b][size="2"][i]By Dr Alex Roman[/i][/size][/b]


[color="black"][size="3"]St Dmitri of Rostov, a Russian Orthodox, said the Rosary.

He also practised the Western devotion of saying a ‘Hail Mary’ at the start of every hour, including throughout the night — what a hardy individual.

He also venerated [url="http://www.angelfire.com/pa3/OldWorldBasic/NewQ_Anew.html#Preneporochnaya"]the Immaculate Conception[/url] of our Lady, for which he was called up on the carpet by the Synod in St Petersburg. ([i][url="http://aconservativesiteforpeace.info/"]A Conservative Site for Peace[/url]’s webmaster notes: I’ve read somewhere the Russian Old Believers did too. Read [/i][url="http://www.angelfire.com/pa3/OldWorldBasic/NewQ_Anew.html"]Q&A[/url][i] for more on the Immaculate Conception, which Orthodoxy never has dogmatized about, positive or negative. The Byzantine Rite used by the Orthodox calls Mary ‘immaculate’ — [/i]пренепорочная.)

He also wrote movingly about the ‘Wounded Heart’ of our Lord Jesus Christ, so much so that a priest I knew who didn’t like the Orthodox exclaimed, ‘That Orthodox person must really BE a saint to write so wonderfully!!’

The Orthodox Church even believes that the Rosary was first revealed to an Eastern monk in the 8th century where our Lady asked the people to say it daily and from the East it spread throughout the world. ([i]This page’s author notes: I’ve never heard this before. Most authorities believe St Dominic introduced the Rosary in its commonly known form to the Roman Catholic Church around 1200.[/i])

To this day, in Russian and Greek monasteries, monks and nuns say up to 150 Hail Marys with prostrations at the end.

The Old Believers of Russia always end their ‘Hail Mary’ (which is also the version used by the Ukrainian Catholic Church) in this way: ‘For Thou hast given birth to Christ the Saviour, the Redeemer of our souls’ or ‘Бo Tы пoрoдилa Христa Спaсa, Избaвитeля душъ нaшихъ.’

One brings one’s fingers to one’s head for ‘Христа’, then down to the belly for ‘Спaса’, then to the right shoulder for ‘Избaвитeля’, the left for ‘душъ’ and then one bows for ‘нaшихъ’.

Believe it or not...

— [i]The Byzantine Forum[/i], Tuesday, 8th January 2002 [/size][/color]
[b][i]Did you know...[/i][/b] that the Western form of the Hail Mary wasn’t completed until St Pius V had it printed in [url="http://breviary.net/"]the Breviary[/url] in 1568? Before that, the West used a shorter form much like the Byzantine Rite.[/quote]

[cruciatacara]

I think some Christians are afraid that any form of devotion towards Mary might be taking something away from Jesus. I have heard them say that even Jesus asked, "Who is my mother and brother and sisters? Those who follow the will of my Father..." They think this means that she isn't any different than the rest of us. I don't think it is disrespect so much as just seeing her as another human being who should be respected but not adored in any way. Catholics can differentiate between latria and dulia and hyperdulia but Protestants tend to think is more black and white terms, and save all their devotion for Jesus.

I think it might take time for some of them not to feel some sense of disloyalty in turning to anyone other than Jesus - after all, they don't pray to saints either. I don't think it should be a big issue for Catholics because God will reveal these things in His own time to everyone. We need to look for common ground with our brothers and sisters in Christ, and not focus only the areas where we separate from each other.

[Byzantine]

[quote name='cruciatacara' timestamp='1313923958' post='2292516']
I think some Christians are afraid that any form of devotion towards Mary might be taking something away from Jesus. I have heard them say that even Jesus asked, "Who is my mother and brother and sisters? Those who follow the will of my Father..." They think this means that she isn't any different than the rest of us. I don't think it is disrespect so much as just seeing her as another human being who should be respected but not adored in any way.
[/quote]

Could it also imply Jesus saying "Don't venerate her just because she gave birth to Me; venerate her because she follows the will of My Father so perfectly (and therefore gave birth to Me)." I don't know if this is a legit interpretation, but it doesn't seem like there's something obviously wrong with it...

Edited August 21, 2011 by Byzantine

[cruciatacara]

Byzantine - I think we Catholics tend to see it that way but some of the non-Catholic Christians I know interpret it differently. Because we have a Magesterium, Catholics tend to share a lot of the same beliefs whereas non-Catholics are subject to a variety of interpretations depending on their particular denomination. So some are more pro-Mary than others. Trying to debate any scripture with a non-Catholic always seems to come down to different interpretations of the same words! And I know a lot of Catholics who vary in their opinions as well, but there seems to be a more standardized base, if you get what I'm trying to say?

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='cruciatacara' timestamp='1313923958' post='2292516']
I think some Christians are afraid that any form of devotion towards Mary might be taking something away from Jesus. I have heard them say that even Jesus asked, "Who is my mother and brother and sisters? Those who follow the will of my Father..." They think this means that she isn't any different than the rest of us. I don't think it is disrespect so much as just seeing her as another human being who should be respected but not adored in any way. Catholics can differentiate between latria and dulia and hyperdulia but Protestants tend to think is more black and white terms, and save all their devotion for Jesus.

I think it might take time for some of them not to feel some sense of disloyalty in turning to anyone other than Jesus - after all, they don't pray to saints either. I don't think it should be a big issue for Catholics because God will reveal these things in His own time to everyone. We need to look for common ground with our brothers and sisters in Christ, and not focus only the areas where we separate from each other.
[/quote]
This. When I was Baptist, this was the predominant thought about Mary. It was cool that she said yes to God, but other than that wasn't seen as all that important and was pretty much only mentioned at Christmas. Devotion to Mary is seen as taking away from devotion to Jesus instead of adding to devotion to Jesus. Even though I'm now Catholic, it wasn't until this year that I really started getting "to Jesus through Mary" without feeling a little weird about it. I've no problem with the rosary or other Marian devotions, but that one got to me a bit until more recently, I'm sure because of my Baptist upbringing.

[MargaretTeresa]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1313935355' post='2292556']
This. When I was Baptist, this was the predominant thought about Mary. It was cool that she said yes to God, but other than that wasn't seen as all that important and was pretty much only mentioned at Christmas. Devotion to Mary is seen as taking away from devotion to Jesus instead of adding to devotion to Jesus. Even though I'm now Catholic, it wasn't until this year that I really started getting "to Jesus through Mary" without feeling a little weird about it. I've no problem with the rosary or other Marian devotions, but that one got to me a bit until more recently, I'm sure because of my Baptist upbringing.
[/quote]

I was raised Methodist and was (accidentally) brought up believing in the Real Presence. However, Mary wasn't much talked about. I looked up to her, seeing as she is Christ's momma, but hadn't really had a devotion or anything until I hit college and was able to really study Catholicism without sneaking around my parents. I really did hold her to high esteem I remember... I even had a tantrum when I was younger because my sister got to play Mary in the Christmas play and I was assigned to be the Archangel Gabriel... again.

[thessalonian]

This thread is something I have often scratched my head about in light of the following verse:

[b] [url="http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4782454"]Luke.1[/url][/b]

[[b]48[/b]] for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden.
For behold, henceforth [b] all generations will call me blessed[/b];

Do they call her blessed or not? Seems most are afraid to do so. When I confront them with this passage they say "oh well yes she was blessed" but it is clear that they have not really fulfillled the passage. This is not some boasting of an egotistic jewish girl. God clearly desires us to call Mary blessed!

Edited August 21, 2011 by thessalonian

[Papist]

I calmly say to them, I love Mary no more the Jesus does.

[Adrestia]

[quote name='MargaretTeresa' timestamp='1313936861' post='2292558']
I ... was (accidentally) brought up believing in the Real Presence.
[/quote]
Sorry to be off topic, but how did that [i]accidentally[/i] happen?

[cooterhein]

[quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1313921726' post='2292507']
I understand that there are different attitudes towards Mary, the mother of Jesus, between Protestants and Catholics. I know why Catholics love her so much, but I never understood why Protestants and others do not feel the need to have some type of devotion, friendship, or high respect for her. If you aren't aboard the Mary train, please explain to me why. If you'd like to know why I view having a relationship with Mary and greatly honoring her is totally necessary, feel free to ask. But, out of respect for the OP, please first explain why you feel Mary isn't the bees knees, etc. Hopefully this can also clear up confusion on how one group of Christians views the other's prospective on Mary and so forth.
[/quote]I think she's great. She was a sinner, but as far as sinners go, she's right up there.

I'm not interested in pursuing a relationship with her or any other Christians who've died because I don't believe that's possible this side of heaven. I know who Mary is, but Mary doesn't know who I am. I'm not hugely interested in one-sided relationships.

[Selah]

I don't understand why it is so hard to grasp; Mary gave birth to God (Jesus is God, unless you want to reject the divinity of Christ taught by the Church). Why wouldn't she be held in such a high position?

[cooterhein]

[quote name='Selah' timestamp='1314232806' post='2294557']
I don't understand why it is so hard to grasp; Mary gave birth to God (Jesus is God, unless you want to reject the divinity of Christ taught by the Church). Why wouldn't she be held in such a high position?
[/quote]Yes, Mary did give birth to God. No, I don't wish to reject the divinity of Christ as it relates to the term [i]Theotokos.[/i] And....that's pretty much all I have. I'm not sure what else you're looking for. That's her position, as far as I understand it. Is that insufficiently high?

Edited August 25, 2011 by cooterhein

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='cooterhein' timestamp='1314227891' post='2294507']
I think she's great. She was a sinner, but as far as sinners go, she's right up there.

I'm not interested in pursuing a relationship with her or any other Christians who've died because I don't believe that's possible this side of heaven. I know who Mary is, but Mary doesn't know who I am. I'm not hugely interested in one-sided relationships.
[/quote]

how sad you poor thing! lol



nope, Mary was free from all sin, as God protected her from such. He did this because she was the new Ark of the Covenant---the Vessel in which The Son of God was conceived and born into this world of ours. I'm not sure you'll ever understand, because as a non-denom, you have rejected the fullness of truth that comes from Jesus Christ which has been handed down throughout the centuries in His One and Holy Catholic Church. You have rejected Christ's truth and replaced it with your own "truths."