Ismael And Isaac,seed Of Abraham.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Pax.domine,sit semper,vobisum...(may the peace of the lord be with you)
Are we oblidged as christians to understand both are equally part of abrahams boosom and as adopted children of god through the lord and saviour christ jesus to attempt whenever called to defend both and try to bring peace between the two,what i'm getting at is this part of the redemtive mission ?
Salam aleikem,Shalom,Allah akbar, God Saves etc etc

God bless you all.

P.S. i had a blow up unfortunately at an assumably muslim man whom came to chat and seem to immediately be on the conversion trail instead of dialogue. Please pray for me a sinner i lack prudence seemingly often for a few years.

P.S.S. We too are cleaved to this tree through the redemtive mission of the lord and saviour christ jesus for all outside of the one true god.

Edited August 19, 2011 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[Aloysius]

Isaac was Abraham's heir, not Ismael. Islamic tradition holds Ismael as being the ancestor for the arab people; this is not something that we necessarily believe (though it could be true, some Jewish interpretations hold this, while others do not, so it's debateable in Jewish circles). Islamic tradition holds that Ismael was Abraham's true heir; this is something that we definitely do not believe.

anyway, the only chosen people were the Hebrews, and they were chosen to be the conduit through which the Gospel was to come to the whole world. when they were sent the savior, those who accepted Him became the New Israel, the chosen people of God, not bound by any race or nation--the Church.

while Islam founds itself on various Old Testament truths, it is nevertheless a false religion. we are called to convert all peoples to Christ, be they Arabs or Jews, because Christ is the pinacle of the whole law and prophets, Christ is the entire purpose of God's covenant with the Jewish people.

what of Mohammad? was he a descendent of Ismael meant to make the Arab people a great nation that God spoke of for Ismael's descendents? If he was, he messed it up severely. He could have embraced the Christianity that had such strong force in the Arab world and truly brought his people into the promise God had made, imagine if the Middle East were Christian! I doubt much would have stopped the whole world from being Christian if Islam had not occurred. such is free will, and perhaps devlish influences.

long story short: there may or may not be some racial connection between Ismael and the Arab peoples. but the point is moot, the Kingdom of God is built upon this earth in the Church, there is no gentile or Jew or Arab, all are called to be one Body in Christ. so, I'd say no to the Bosom of Abraham thing. It's an Abrahimic religion formed by a Semitic people, but that's it.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1313990154' post='2293159']
Isaac was Abraham's heir, not Ismael. Islamic tradition holds Ismael as being the ancestor for the arab people; this is not something that we necessarily believe (though it could be true, some Jewish interpretations hold this, while others do not, so it's debateable in Jewish circles). Islamic tradition holds that Ismael was Abraham's true heir; this is something that we definitely do not believe.

anyway, the only chosen people were the Hebrews, and they were chosen to be the conduit through which the Gospel was to come to the whole world. when they were sent the savior, those who accepted Him became the New Israel, the chosen people of God, not bound by any race or nation--the Church.

while Islam founds itself on various Old Testament truths, it is nevertheless a false religion. we are called to convert all peoples to Christ, be they Arabs or Jews, because Christ is the pinacle of the whole law and prophets, Christ is the entire purpose of God's covenant with the Jewish people.

what of Mohammad? was he a descendent of Ismael meant to make the Arab people a great nation that God spoke of for Ismael's descendents? If he was, he messed it up severely. He could have embraced the Christianity that had such strong force in the Arab world and truly brought his people into the promise God had made, imagine if the Middle East were Christian! I doubt much would have stopped the whole world from being Christian if Islam had not occurred. such is free will, and perhaps devlish influences.

long story short: there may or may not be some racial connection between Ismael and the Arab peoples. but the point is moot, the Kingdom of God is built upon this earth in the Church, there is no gentile or Jew or Arab, all are called to be one Body in Christ. so, I'd say no to the Bosom of Abraham thing. It's an Abrahimic religion formed by a Semitic people, but that's it.
[/quote]

Dominus vobiscum,
i read your first 10 words, and after i reply will read the rest, ishmael and isaac are in scripture as the seed of abrahm. Deny the scripture and run the risk of denying god.

God bless

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

<yawns> i read the rest of it, do you hold the new testament in higher esteem than the old or both equally as the ongoing redemtive work of GOD for men ?

Sasha the soup lady " Love is the law,for god is love "

Edited August 22, 2011 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[Aloysius]

yes Ismael was from Abraham's seed, but God appointed Isaac the true heir of Abraham through which He would work out salvation history in the people of Israel.

the whole of the Old Testament points to the New Testament. Christ came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it; all the prophecies pointed towards Him, in Him is the fulfillment of all of God's Old Testament promises. the Old Testament is meaningless and unfulfilled without the New; the New is absent of the context of salvation history without the Old. They cannot be separated from each other; when they are separated, one has lost touch with the living God.

this does not diminish the value of the Old Testament, it reveals the Old Testament's true meaning. the Old Covenant was not abolished, it was fulfilled in Christ, so that the new Davidic King (the seed of David, Christ) rules over the new Davidic Kingdom (the new Israel, the Church)

there is no gentile or jew, all are equal in the new covenant of Christ. the descendents of Ismael (if they are the Arab people, as some extant Jewish traditions, but not all, and as Islamic traditions hold) are offered the same salvation as is offered to the descendents of Isaac... which is the same salvation offered to all the descendents of Adam Himself: the power to become sons of God through Christ Jesus. no other way, for in Him alone is the Father revealed. Islam is not the answer for the Arab people; Christianity is the answer. if only Mohammad had seen that fact, had seen the living God revealed in the beauty of the incarnation that fulfilled all the law and the prophets, oh how different the history of the world might have been.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye' timestamp='1313999281' post='2293177']
<yawns> i read the rest of it, do you hold the new testament in higher esteem than the old or both equally as the ongoing redemtive work of GOD for men ?

Sasha the soup lady " Love is the law,for god is love "
[/quote]
Aloysius took the time to give you a very learned and concise answer to a complicated topic. Show him appreciation, not disrespect.