Should Texas Seceed

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1315189837' post='2300304']I don't think there was much assumption. I think mainly they were inferences or conclusions or some such. Perhaps deductions; I can never keep all that straight. Whatever they were, they may have been incorrect, but they were based directly off of your extremely strong reaction to secession. Assumption sounds reckless, to me, and I wasn't being reckless. Snitty, maybe. But not reckless.[/quote]Respectfully disagreed. I also would submit you were reckless, presumptuous, and incorrect. You also personally attacked me by directly suggesting I was subject to paranoia... which because it isn't true is also slander. All signs of the good Catholic you are, you earned that Church Militant tag.

However, my reaction is merely proportional to the facts. The "[i]Republic of Texas[/i]" group does appear to be a terrorist group. To contrast them with another political movement for secession, "The Alaska Independence Party". They have from what I understand peacefully, legally, and democratically moved for independence from the United States. In fact, they gathered enough petitioners in 2006 to hold a state referendum to instruct the State to seek secession. However, it was blocked from the ballot, and the Alaska Supreme Court ruled the mere referendum unconstitutional and the blocking of the referendum the proper course of action. So this is a group that I can respect, that isn't related to Texas, and the facts of law still come down that its simply unconstitutional.

As a liberal libertarian, I do think member states should be free to peacefully, legally, and democratically secede... But I also support localism, so I think "state" governments are too big, centralized, and far away. But my opinion isn't relevant, what is immediately relevant is that it is unconstitutional and illegal... even when it's being done peacefully, legally, and democratically... Which is regretful.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1315189837' post='2300304']For me, national identity is ultimately foolish. I certainly have my little streak of pride in group identity, but when I think about it, it's all rather silly. Government of any form must be a means to an end. If secession would result in better protection of life, liberty, and property, I would support it. I'm really not certain it will--I think it's motivated, in general, by something very similar to the feelings that inspire aneurysms in those who oppose it.[/quote]I don't see a good case for it, to be fair. Texas benefits a lot from the United States and Mexico has thrown in more than once if Texas ever left the Union, they would take a shot at taking it back.

But... appreciating/understanding one's heritage is important to me personally, but I wouldn't expect it from anyone else. I tend to see nationalism as an enemy to peace, freedom, and democracy... along with militarism and large standing militaries.

Edited September 5, 2011 by Mr.Cat

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1315196203' post='2300350']
Respectfully disagreed. I also would submit you were reckless, presumptuous, and incorrect. You also personally attacked me by directly suggesting I was subject to paranoia... which because it isn't true is also slander. All signs of the good Catholic you are, you earned that Church Militant tag.[/quote]
I don't remember pointing out your paranoia, but then again, I wouldn't really have to do it directly to make you feel that way. But I might have, and if I did, you'll probably search for it and show me. At which point, you'll triumphantly say "SEE? YOU DID!" and then I'll remind you I said I didn't [i]remember [/i]doing it and then accuse you of making fun of my memory disability.

I know I wasn't reckless. I typed slowly and wore a helmet.

The tag has to do with the fact that I know what a bastard I am. You implied I was a terrorist, I merely commented on your bent toward nationalism--which comes in degrees. Not all nationalists are warmongers.

[quote]However, my reaction is merely proportional to the facts. The "[i]Republic of Texas[/i]" group does appear to be a terrorist group. To contrast them with another political movement for secession, "The Alaska Independence Party". They have from what I understand peacefully, legally, and democratically moved for independence from the United States. In fact, they gathered enough petitioners in 2006 to hold a state referendum to instruct the State to seek secession. However, it was blocked from the ballot, and the Alaska Supreme Court ruled the mere referendum unconstitutional and the blocking of the referendum the proper course of action. So this is a group that I can respect, that isn't related to Texas, and the facts of law still come down that its simply unconstitutional.[/quote]
You're wasting a lot of time attacking a group that no one has defended. I don't care about the ROTC.

[quote]As a liberal libertarian, I do think member states should be free to peacefully, legally, and democratically secede... But I also support localism, so I think "state" governments are too big, centralized, and far away. But my opinion isn't relevant, what is immediately relevant is that it is unconstitutional and illegal... even when it's being done peacefully, legally, and democratically... Which is regretful.I don't see a good case for it, to be fair.[/quote]
A Libertarian shouldn't balk at moral actions made illegal by government whimsy. You might as well join the Democrats, if you think unjust laws are to be followed or defended. The good case for secession would be a demand for it (I won't say majority, since I reject democracy as legitimizing force) (so "demand" is a really nebulous word. Hell, the argument is so vague as to be pointless. Probably I just like the look of my own words. Or perhaps it's a statement on individualism, cleverly exposing the weakness of collectivism).

[quote]Texas benefits a lot from the United States and Mexico has thrown in more than once if Texas ever left the Union, they would take a shot at taking it back.[/quote]
The US benefits a lot from Texas. Good luck to Mexico--a large number of our very competent soldiers come from Texas. You really play heavily on fear of being taken by Mexico.Thanks to Republicans, Texans are still armed. Also, the Mexican army is a bunch of ninnies.

[quote]But... appreciating/understanding one's heritage is important to me personally, but I wouldn't expect it from anyone else. I tend to see nationalism as an enemy to peace, freedom, and democracy... along with militarism and large standing militaries.
[/quote]
I think it comes in degrees, but generally I would say it is an enemy to all those things. And I agree on the second, as well. HUZZAH


Does the "liberal" in "liberal libertarian" mean "classical liberal" or "progressive"? It has so many meanings, that word.

Edited September 5, 2011 by Winchester

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1315232079' post='2300473']I don't remember pointing out your paranoia, but then again, I wouldn't really have to do it directly to make you feel that way. But I might have, and if I did, you'll probably search for it and show me. At which point, you'll triumphantly say "SEE? YOU DID!" and then I'll remind you I said I didn't [i]remember [/i]doing it and then accuse you of making fun of my memory disability.[/quote]I don't have issues with paranoia, so once again you are personally attacking me. Once again this will be reported. You can be so unchristian, why is it so hard for Christians to act like Christians? But... can you point out any instance where I made fun of you? Really?

But there is no need to quote where you directly suggested I have issues with paranoia because you did it again. Do you really enjoy slandering me that much? It doesn't make Catholicism look cool at all.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1315232079' post='2300473']I know I wasn't reckless. I typed slowly and wore a helmet.[/quote]Lame.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1315232079' post='2300473']The tag has to do with the fact that I know what a bastard I am. You implied I was a terrorist, I merely commented on your bent toward nationalism--which comes in degrees. Not all nationalists are warmongers.[/quote]I asked you a question... which you never directly answered.

I'm not a nationalist. Winchester, I am starting to think you are sore with me from loosing all your arguments with me. It looks bad sir.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1315232079' post='2300473']You're wasting a lot of time attacking a group that no one has defended. I don't care about the ROTC.[/quote]Not wasting time. It is very relevant to the topic, since this is the only notable group in Texas advancing Texas independence. The Republic of Texas (RoT) advance Texas independence in spite of peace, freedom, and democracy like you advocated before. They feel Texas should be independent even if a super majority of Texans oppose it, even if our constitutions prohibit it, and even if it takes terrorism to get their aims.

When confronted with the lack political interest in secession and the unconstitutional nature of it, you pushed Texas independence even harder. So I asked a question to make a contrast, which I already explained... So...[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1315232079' post='2300473']A Libertarian shouldn't balk at moral actions made illegal by government whimsy. You might as well join the Democrats, if you think unjust laws are to be followed or defended. The good case for secession would be a demand for it (I won't say majority, since I reject democracy as legitimizing force) (so "demand" is a really nebulous word. Hell, the argument is so vague as to be pointless. Probably I just like the look of my own words. Or perhaps it's a statement on individualism, cleverly exposing the weakness of collectivism).[/quote]Which once again you make an appeal against peace and democracy, defending and advancing the argument of Texas secession against our own constitution and the super majority of Texans who oppose it. You can't even make a good case for Texas secession...

But I see stating facts to you is support and deface of those facts. Reality must be a hard place for you.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1315232079' post='2300473']The US benefits a lot from Texas. Good luck to Mexico--a large number of our very competent soldiers come from Texas. You really play heavily on fear of being taken by Mexico.Thanks to Republicans, Texans are still armed. Also, the Mexican army is a bunch of ninnies.[/quote]The United States benefits more from other states in the United States. Texas doesn't have a strong military force and Mexico does, so unless the United States pledged to protect Texas (in the past the United States refused to), Texas doesn't stand much of a chance. But hopefully you realize that if Texas left the union that those troops would still be under the command of the United States till their tour of service was over, right?

I didn't play heavily on any fear of Mexico or anything else, it was a comment. Winchester, maybe you should read about the drug cartel problems that we have on the boarder and the incidents we have had with the Mexican military. Governor Rick Perry has more than once dispatched the Texas national guard to handle both. But I guess threats from Mexico qualify as terrifying to you...[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1315232079' post='2300473']I think it comes in degrees, but generally I would say it is an enemy to all those things. And I agree on the second, as well. HUZZAH[/quote]Respectfully disagreed.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1315232079' post='2300473']Does the "liberal" in "liberal libertarian" mean "classical liberal" or "progressive"? It has so many meanings, that word.[/quote]Yes, it means I strongly advance classical liberalism, also self-ownership, self-determination, and egalitarianism, non-aggression and socialism... free, open, transparent, and secular society, government, and markets. Devolution of power, localism, limited government, economic feasibility and integrity.

Edited September 5, 2011 by Mr.Cat

[add]

Texas is burning
[url="http://www.statesman.com/news/catastrophic-fires-burn-thousands-of-acres-force-evacuations-1820174.html"]http://www.statesman.com/news/catastrophic-fires-burn-thousands-of-acres-force-evacuations-1820174.html[/url]

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1315253857' post='2300589']
I don't have issues with paranoia, so once again you are personally attacking me. Once again this will be reported. You can be so unchristian, why is it so hard for Christians to act like Christians? But... can you point out any instance where I made fun of you? Really?

But there is no need to quote where you directly suggested I have issues with paranoia because you did it again. Do you really enjoy slandering me
that much? It doesn't make Catholicism look cool at all.Lame.I asked you a question... which you never directly answered.

[/quote]
You don't think that one needn't make a direct accusation for the other person to feel accused of something? I was merely observing that I needn't have accused you directly in order to make you feel as though I'd said something about you. The same goes for anyone; it's not like there's some kind of plot against you.

I make fun of myself, too; I make fun of everyone.

Also:
[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1315011778' post='2299400']

I am not familiar with the RoT (and so obviously not a member)--what terrorist attacks did they undertake? The acronym is intriguing, though. Is it related to the ROTC?
[/quote]
Sorry you missed it the first time. The opening sentence obviously answers the accusation, but I like parenthetical stuffs.

[quote]I'm not a nationalist. Winchester, I am starting to think you are sore with me from loosing all your arguments with me. It looks bad sir.Not wasting time. It is very relevant to the topic, since this is the only notable group in Texas advancing Texas independence. The Republic of Texas (RoT) advance Texas independence in spite of peace, freedom, and democracy like you advocated before. They feel Texas should be independent even if a super majority of Texans oppose it, even if our constitutions prohibit it, and even if it takes terrorism to get their aims.[/quote]
*losing

[quote]When confronted with the lack political interest in secession and the unconstitutional nature of it, you pushed Texas independence even harder. So I asked a question to make a contrast, which I already explained... So...Which once again you make an appeal against peace and democracy, defending and advancing the argument of Texas secession against our own constitution and the super majority of Texans who oppose it. You can't even make a good case for Texas secession...[/quote]
Democracy is and ends, not a means. It's not a sacred cow, for me. I'm not trying to make a case for Texas secession; I never was. I can see why people are passionate about it.

[quote]...Reality must be a hard place for you...[/quote]
It varies in consistency.



[quote]I didn't play heavily on any fear of Mexico or anything else, it was a comment. Winchester, maybe you should read about the drug cartel problems that we have on the boarder and the incidents we have had with the Mexican military. Governor Rick Perry has more than once dispatched the Texas national guard to handle both. But I guess threats from Mexico qualify as terrifying to you...[/quote]
I wasn't the one who brought it up as a threat.


[quote]Respectfully disagreed.[/quote]
You disagree that there are degrees of nationalism? Or do you not like huzzahs?



[quote]Yes, it means I strongly advance classical liberalism, also self-ownership, self-determination, and egalitarianism, non-aggression and socialism... free, open, transparent, and secular society, government, and markets. Devolution of power, localism, limited government, economic feasibility and integrity.
[/quote]Good. Too many people misuse "liberal".

Edited September 6, 2011 by Winchester

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1315268396' post='2300714']You don't think that one needn't make a direct accusation for the other person to feel accused of something? I was merely observing that I needn't have accused you directly in order to make you feel as though I'd said something about you. The same goes for anyone; it's not like there's some kind of plot against you.[/quote]I dislike it when theists are intellectually dishonest with themselves.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1315268396' post='2300714']I make fun of myself, too; I make fun of everyone.[/quote]You're not making fun, you're just lying and slandering, for the benefit of your argument... which makes it a personal attack.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1315268396' post='2300714']Also:

Sorry you missed it the first time. The opening sentence obviously answers the accusation, but I like parenthetical stuffs.[/quote]That isn't a [b]direct[/b] answer. Only a pedant when it suits you, eh?

But I am glad your missing the point of why it was brought up.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1315268396' post='2300714']*losing[/quote]Oh, there's the pedantry, I thought you were missing.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1315268396' post='2300714']Democracy is and ends, not a means. It's not a sacred cow, for me. I'm not trying to make a case for Texas secession; I never was. I can see why people are passionate about it.[/quote]So you don't support democracy. Okay. But the fact you would make a case against democracy (a super majority) in order to facilitate a fanatical terrorist minority in Texas, without any good reason, is frightening and disturbing.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1315268396' post='2300714']It varies in consistency.[/quote]For you, I don't doubt it.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1315268396' post='2300714']I wasn't the one who brought it up as a threat.[/quote]You made the accusation that I was playing heavily, maybe you need to rephrase or explain, which was the hope. [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1315268396' post='2300714']You disagree that there are degrees of nationalism? Or do you not like huzzahs?[/quote]I primarily disagreed that nationalism is not an enemy of peace, freedom, and democracy. I also disagreed with your implication that I was merely less of a nationalist, since you implied the same in previous posts.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1315268396' post='2300714']Good. Too many people misuse "liberal".[/quote]Glad we have that settled. But while I would enjoy hosting your [i]"[s]paranoid[/s] assumptions"[/i] (to quote you) and arguments, unless you have something substantial to present we seem to be done here.

[b][url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/forum/3-debate-table/"]Back to Debate Table[/url][/b]

Edited September 6, 2011 by Mr.Cat

[Winchester]

What do you think my argument is?

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1313613043' post='2290053']
I think it would cause more suffering than it would alleviate.

I wonder that states could not exploit tax deductions for state income tax in order to reduce the Federal government's intake of funds. Much as I hate playing the game they initiated, it's sometimes necessary as a stopgap measure.
[/quote]

Edited September 6, 2011 by Winchester

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1315271225' post='2300767']What do you think my argument is?[/quote]So far... personal attacks, pedantry, unfounded assumptions, and support of a fanatical terrorist group in Texas. Why else would you support Texas independence against a super majority of texans, our own laws and constitution, and Texas's own best interests?

Because clearly if it were merely states should have a right to secede, you would of already seen I agree. Then there would be no argument.[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1315196203' post='2300350']I do think member states should be free to peacefully, legally, and democratically secede... [/quote]But I also suspected you were possibly trolling around or maybe trying to deny the facts of the situation.

Edited September 6, 2011 by Mr.Cat

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1315271336' post='2300772']
So far... personal attacks, pedantry, unfounded assumptions, and support of a fanatical terrorist group in Texas. Why else would you support Texas independence against a super majority of texans, our own laws and constitution, and Texas's own best interests?

Because clearly if it were merely states should have a right to secede, you would of already seen I agree. Then there would be no argument.But I also suspected you were possibly trolling around or maybe trying to deny the facts of the situation.
[/quote]
I provided the quote of my original statement about secession.
Perhaps after you responded to my question. I edited.

You misinterpreted my statements about your poll results. Since I don't accept democracy as a justification for force, the majority opinion doesn't matter to me. You'll need to provide the quote wherein I supported a group of which I was not even aware.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1315272004' post='2300788']I provided the quote of my original statement about secession.
Perhaps after you responded to my question. I edited.

You misinterpreted my statements about your poll results. Since I don't accept democracy as a justification for force, the majority opinion doesn't matter to me. You'll need to provide the quote wherein I supported a group of which I was not even aware.[/quote]So what is your argument?

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1315272143' post='2300791']
So what is your argument?
[/quote]
I stand by my first statement: That it would probably cause more suffering than it would alleviate.

I also stand by this (I bolded some relevant words. Those in favor of secession are "they". If I were in their group, it would be "we" and I wouldn't have bothered discussing them in the first place (so there might not have been a 'we' at all, when you think about it (Or when [i]I[/i] think about it)). I would have talked about the majority who oppose it):
[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1315011778' post='2299400']
[s]So we can't have our next governor, according to the Constitution?[/s]

Oh...[i]secession![/i] Well, I don't know how many actually favor it--no one ever asked me, so your stats are either from many years ago, or are based upon a partial poll of residents. I actually don't care how many people are ([b]remember, for me democracy is an ends, not a means[/b]), nor am I really that worried about [b]those who do[/b], although I understand [b]they are frustrated with something or other and think secession will be a change[/b]. I am not a nationalist, but I understand you and many others are. While I disagree with your nationalism, I don't think it means you are uninterested in justice. In fact, your nationalism is probably motivated by some desire for justice. There is more than one interpretation of the right of secession, of course. Nothing in human government is ever really settled, I think.

I am not familiar with the RoT (and so obviously not a member)--what terrorist attacks did they undertake? The acronym is intriguing, though. Is it related to the ROTC?
[/quote]

I'm not certain I really have an argument, just a bunch of statements and proclamations and such.

[Jesus_lol]

I have never before seen a man use a Winchester to put down a dying Cat, but im glad the suffering is ending.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1315285237' post='2300970']I have never before seen a man use a Winchester to put down a dying Cat, but im glad the suffering is ending.[/quote]Winchester is a man!? No wonder you posted here.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1315291398' post='2300998']
Winchester is a man!? No wonder you posted here.
[/quote]


go on, explain this?

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1315291552' post='2300999']


go on, explain this?[/quote]Awww... you need help understanding?