Petition To Recall Youcat - Mark Shea's Take On The Silliness

[Lil Red]

here is Aquinas and More (booksellers) and their conversation with Ignatius Press (who publishes the YOUCAT): http://catholicinformation.aquinasandmore.com/2011/08/12/theological-problems-with-the-youcat-have-forced-us-to-discontinue-selling-it/

i think Mark Brumley's reply adequately answers the objections.

[Papist]

[quote]Ian, we at Ignatius Press very much appreciate Aquinas and More's apostolic work and your commitment to authentic Catholicism. However, I have to say that in this case, I simply don't understand your reasoning or see validity to your arguments. I hope you will reconsider the stance you have taken. --- Mark Brumley[/quote]

Wow! I can't believe he doesn't see any reasoning or validity.

[Brother Adam]

I found Mark's explanation thorough and well reasoned. I have read a good portion of the youth catechism and am handing it out to our youth group this year. It is not without its flaws, of which my biggest two complaints are binding and the pictures. I would give the catechism a 4.5 out of 5. It is not perfect but better than anything most of us could hope to produce. There are a few ambiguities, but nothing heretical or even heterodox. It is an outstanding resource and I am glad we have it.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1313518944' post='2289238']
I found Marks' explanation thorough and well reasoned (a rare occurrence where we agree). I have read a good portion of the youth catechism and am handing it out to our youth group this year. It is not without its flaws, of which my biggest two complaints are binding and the pictures. I would give the catechism a 4.5 out of 5. It is not perfect but better than anything most of us could hope to produce. There are a few ambiguities, but nothing heretical or even heterodox. It is an outstanding resource and I am glad we have it.
[/quote]

[Deus te Amat]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1313509551' post='2289094']
I haven't actually read it, but I have read reviews from sources I believe reliable. Here an excerpt from it,

[color=#0000ff][i]The Bible is not meant to convey precise historical information or scientific findings to us. Moreover, the authors were children of their time. They shared the cultural ideas of the world around them and often were also dominated by its errors. Nevertheless, everything that man must know about God and the way of his salvation is found with infallible certainty in Sacred Scripture.[/i][/color][/quote]

What's the problem? It's the truth.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Interesting. Now I kinda want to read this thing.

[Papist]

[quote name='Deus_te_Amat' timestamp='1313519962' post='2289252']
What's the problem? It's the truth.
[/quote]
I am not saying it is untrue, but I am looking at it through the lens of a teen. However, for some teens it can be very confusing with phrases like, [i]Moreover, the authors were children of their time[/i]. and [i]They shared the cultural ideas of the world around them and often were also dominated by its errors[/i].

To be honest, I don't understand the need for this YOUCAT. I think teens are fully capable of reading and comprehending the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Baltimore Catechism.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1313521260' post='2289267']
I am not saying it is untrue, but I am looking at it through the lens of a teen. However, for some teens it can be very confusing with phrases like, [i]Moreover, the authors were children of their time[/i]. and [i]They shared the cultural ideas of the world around them and often were also dominated by its errors[/i]. [/quote]
In my opinion these are very important ideas that should be taught early on. As is often pointed out, stories in the bible sometimes portray things such as polygamy, slavery, woman as property, revenge killing, etcetera, as though they are God's will. There are also many ideas in the bible that would rightly strike the scientifically literate as quite erroneous. I would be much more concerned if the youcat were representing biblical fundamentalism and/or anti-science creationism.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1313521260' post='2289267']
I am not saying it is untrue, but I am looking at it through the lens of a teen. However, for some teens it can be very confusing with phrases like, [i]Moreover, the authors were children of their time[/i]. and [i]They shared the cultural ideas of the world around them and often were also dominated by its errors[/i].

To be honest, I don't understand the need for this YOUCAT. I think teens are fully capable of reading and comprehending the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Baltimore Catechism.
[/quote]

No they really aren't. The CCC was written to the level of theologians and clergy, to be used as an authoritative reference to produce other catechisms, among other uses. The reading level it contains is above the comprehension of many teens, and in the case of teens in my area, far above their level. In the USA, the liberal socialist secularist agenda has wreaked havoc on the public school system. As a result, many teens cannot read at their own grade level. In my own parish, we have roughly 150 confirmandi each year. Of those perhaps 20 read at or above their grade level.

As for the BC, it is well written and easy to understand but it has a serious flaw for today's youth. It fails to explain the why? and how?. Today's youth are hungry for why? and are not content with being told to believe something because 'I told you to, that's why!'.

YOUCAT tries to merge the best of both and make it accessible to youth. It is the best thing I have seen written for teens in a long long time.

Edited August 16, 2011 by Groo the Wanderer

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1313521260' post='2289267']
I am not saying it is untrue, but I am looking at it through the lens of a teen. However, for some teens it can be very confusing with phrases like, [i]Moreover, the authors were children of their time[/i]. and [i]They shared the cultural ideas of the world around them and often were also dominated by its errors[/i].

To be honest, I don't understand the need for this YOUCAT. I think teens are fully capable of reading and comprehending the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Baltimore Catechism.
[/quote]
I'm not sure how you can argue that what is said above is too confusing for teens, but then argue they are capable of understanding the regular Catechism, which is written in a far more confusing manner for the average teen than the YOUCAT.

[Laudate_Dominum]

I just saw this on facebook.


[b] [url="http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/youth-catechism-also-wrong-on-euthanasia-other-religions-vatican-admits/"][size=3][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Youth Catechism also wrong on euthanasia, other religions Vatican admits[/font][/size][/url][/b]

[Papist]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1313521907' post='2289276']
In my opinion these are very important ideas that should be taught early on. As is often pointed out, stories in the bible sometimes portray things such as polygamy, slavery, woman as property, revenge killing, etcetera, as though they are God's will. There are also many ideas in the bible that would rightly strike the scientifically literate as quite erroneous. I would be much more concerned if the youcat were representing biblical fundamentalism and/or anti-science creationism.
[/quote]


[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1313521962' post='2289279']

No they really aren't. The CCC was written to the level of theologians and clergy, to be used as an authoritative reference to produce other catechisms, among other uses. The reading level it contains is above the comprehension of many teens, and in the case of teens in my area, far above their level. In the USA, the liberal socialist secularist agenda has wreaked havoc on the public school system. As a result, many teens cannot read at their own grade level. In my own parish, we have roughly 150 confirmandi each year. Of those perhaps 20 read at or above their grade level.

As for the BC, it is well written and easy to understand but it has a serious flaw for today's youth. It fails to explain the why? and how?. Today's youth are hungry for why? and are not content with being told to believe something because 'I told you to, that's why!'.

YOUCAT tries to merge the best of both and make it accessible to youth. It is the best thing I have seen written for teens in a long long time.
[/quote]

I do not have a problem with what the intended message/goal is. It is the ambiguity, which can lead the reader to a wrong or inaccurate understanding.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[url="http://the-hermeneutic-of-continuity.blogspot.com/2011/04/youcat-not-only-problems-of-translation.html"]Hermeneutic of Continuity (blog) on the subject[/url]

[LaPetiteSoeur]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1313521962' post='2289279']

No they really aren't. The CCC was written to the level of theologians and clergy, to be used as an authoritative reference to produce other catechisms, among other uses. The reading level it contains is above the comprehension of many teens, and in the case of teens in my area, far above their level. In the USA, the liberal socialist secularist agenda has wreaked havoc on the public school system. As a result, many teens cannot read at their own grade level. In my own parish, we have roughly 150 confirmandi each year. Of those perhaps 20 read at or above their grade level.

As for the BC, it is well written and easy to understand but it has a serious flaw for today's youth. It fails to explain the why? and how?. Today's youth are hungry for why? and are not content with being told to believe something because 'I told you to, that's why!'.

YOUCAT tries to merge the best of both and make it accessible to youth. It is the best thing I have seen written for teens in a long long time.
[/quote]

I taught religious education for two years. Half the confirmandi were still learning English, let alone reading the Catechism.

When I was in high school, the LAST thing any of us wanted to hear in religion class was simple explanations. We didn't want to just be told WHAT the Church believes. We wanted to know WHY and HOW the Church got to the conclusion. Because we were allowed and encouraged to ask questions about the preceps of the faith, we grew in our faith--and many of us were changed through it. Many of us no longer believed in the death penalty. Others were converted on the issue of abortion--more pro-lifers at the end of the year. Others understood why the Church believes what it does on homosexuality.

Had we just been given a simple "This is what you MUST believe," most of my fellow students would have turned their ears off. The YOUCAT is written in the language of the youth, for youth. It's not esoteric. It's not preachy. And it isn't just a statement of beliefs. It's what we believe and WHY.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1313522317' post='2289283']
I just saw this on facebook.


[b] [url="http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/youth-catechism-also-wrong-on-euthanasia-other-religions-vatican-admits/"][size=3][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Youth Catechism also wrong on euthanasia, other religions Vatican admits[/font][/size][/url][/b]
[/quote]

Yes, that is well known history regarding that translation of youcat which to my understanding the text was recalled and reprinted. I think it had to do with the complete rush to translate it, edit it, publish it, and get it out the door in time for WYD.