Any Chance This Could Be True?

[BG45]

[quote name='bernard' timestamp='1313362062' post='2287798']

No, I'm saying we don't know exactly what transpired and what his options were.



Yes.

Two 30 Days magazine reporters went to visit Cardinal Siri.

[color=#000000][color=#000000]“Siri was asked a question he did not expect, about the truth of periodic allegations that Masonry had infiltrated the Church. The elderly Cardinal did not answer and, suggesting that he did not want to make any public declaration on the issue, he pointed to the tape recorder that was switched on. Then he made a gesture with his other hand that was very eloquent. What he meant was: [u]‘Of course, there was infiltration.’[/u] The tape recorder was turned off and Siri added: [b]‘This is a very serious matter, and I have first-hand sources. I have written my record of this and other events in the life of the Church, which will be published in 50 years’ time. [u]But for now[/u], I would prefer not to say anything more.’[/b][/color][/color]
[/quote]

He would have no option other than martyrdom (if that's what fighting for his papacy would end in), to do otherwise would be to deny the Holy Spirit.

And I fail to see how this quote from a magazine proves anything...are you saying the Cardinals were part of a Masonic plot? Also quoting the magazine again shows that this topic was hardly the "innocent" question it was posed as.

[Lil Red]

i've read through this whole thread, and to answer the OP, there is still no chance it could be true.

[MIKolbe]

I'm with Mr. Red.

[Amppax]

[quote name='bernard' timestamp='1313359446' post='2287780']

When he was approached by Louis Hubert Remey in 1985 and asked whether he was elected pope he said "I am bound by the secret."

[/quote]

Yeah, the fact that they don't talk about conclaves. Not too tough to figure out.

[bernard]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1313365236' post='2287839']
i've read through this whole thread, and to answer the OP, there is still no chance it could be true.
[/quote]

Well OK, I think we've covered everything.
If you've given it consideration and feel it isn't plausible fair enough.

[bernard]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1313366138' post='2287844']

Yeah, the fact that they don't talk about conclaves. Not too tough to figure out.
[/quote]

If you read the article Remey asks him some questions about the conclave and Siri answers them directly, he then asks him if he was elected Pope and he says I am bound by the secret. If he could answer the first questions about the conclave why couldn't he answer the second one. All he had to say was no I wasn't elected Pope.

[Amppax]

[quote name='bernard' timestamp='1313366795' post='2287856']

If you read the article Remey asks him some questions about the conclave and Siri answers them directly, he then asks him if he was elected Pope and he says I am bound by the secret. If he could answer the first questions about the conclave why couldn't he answer the second one. All he had to say was no I wasn't elected Pope.
[/quote]

well that was kinda clear considering he wasn't Pope . In all seriousness though, could you provide a link to the article?

Edited August 15, 2011 by Amppax

[bernard]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1313367822' post='2287868']

well that was kinda clear considering he wasn't Pope . In all seriousness though, could you provide a link to the article?
[/quote]

[i]By Louis Hubert Remy
Translated into English by Heidi Hagen for
“The Sangre de Cristo Newsnotes” - No. 55 - December 1987
Westcliffe, Colorado, U.S.A. - Page 3
Original text in French published in the
bulletin SOUS LA BANNIERE No.06 JUILLET-AOUT 1986
Editions Sainte Jeanne d'Arc
Director: Mr. A.M. Bonnet de Viller
“Les Guillots”
Villegenon
F -18260 Vailly-sur-Sauldre
France[/i]


[i]When paying a visit to Monsieur de la Franque­rie, in November 1984, with my friend François Dal­lais, we spoke again of this grave problem. Mon­sieur de La Franquerie, in 1963, was in permanent contact with numerous Roman prelates, and he confirmed to us that he had heard of this confidentially by persons who could be trusted to be well aware of these facts.[/i]
[i]We decided, in order to relieve our conscience, to see Cardinal Siri in Genoa. As Monsieur de la Franquerie has had the opportunity of seeing him in the past and having had pleasant conversations with him, he wrote to him in order to ask for an audience; which the Cardinal granted to us on Friday follow­ing Ascension, 1985.[/i]
[i]In this way on 17 May 1985, we met together at my home in Lyon, Monsieur de la Franquerie, and François Dallais. The evening was marvelous. I admit that I am sensitive to the charm of the very old France of our dear Marquis, and we occupied, un­til a very advanced hour of the night, unforgettable moments by listening to his souvenirs of a fecund and well-filled life. In his souvenirs of Monseigneur [Paul] Jouin, the Marechal Petain or of Pius XII, Monsieur de la Franquerie is unquenchable and passionate.[/i]
[i]The following day we left early to Genoa where the Cardinal was expecting us towards ten hours and granted us an audience of two hours. We were re­ceived with much attention in the wonderful episco­pal palace of Genoa. The Cardinal speaks French very well, was cordial, attentive, and of a courtesy proper to people, who are great by their function, but still greater by their heart. A dialogue took place between these two respectable persons in a diplomatic language which I did not know and which is of a charm and delicacy resulting from the education of hundreds of years, and unfortunately no longer exists today.[/i]
[i]They spoke of several problems of today and the past, which need not be recalled here. Of concern to us, as arranged the evening before, was to speak, first of all, about Cardinal Tisserant’s leaving the conclave. When we recalled this fact, the reaction of Cardinal Siri was clear, precise, firm, and unques­tionable: “No, no one has left the Conclave.” He could only give witness of what he had seen and not of what might have happened, while he was asleep, or behind his back. But what retained our attention was this firmness, this categorical NO of the Cardinal.[/i]
[i]Some moments later, when we asked him wheth­er he had been elected pope, his reaction was com­pletely different. He started by remaining silent for a long time, then raised his eyes to heaven with a ric­tus of suffering and pain, joined his hands and said, weighing each word with gravity: “I am bound by the secret.” Then, after a long silence, heavy for us all, he said again: “I am bound by the secret. This secret is horrible. I would have books to write about the different conclaves. Very serious things have taken place. But I can say nothing.”[/i]
[i]Let’s think about it. If he had not been elected pope, he would have said so with as much prompt­ness and firmness as he had replied to the preceding question. As he had been elected, he could not say so, as he was bound by the secret, and as he could not lie, he took refuge behind this secret.[/i]
[i]In fact, it appears that someone among my trust­worthy friends who knows him very well has as­sured me that the Cardinal had told him that he had been elected pope twice: instead of *Paul VI and in­stead of *Wojtyla. The first time he had refused, the second time he had been obliged to refuse under the pressure of schism![/i]
[i]We were three witnesses who have left very perturbed and practically convinced of his election.[/i]
[i]And now there are serious questions being raised. Has he resigned? Has he been forced to re­sign? What about these elections? What heavy se­crets are weighing upon him?[/i]
[i]During the last Synod, he remained some hours and then left. In spite of his advanced age and the fact that he exceeded 75 years, he has not given his resignation and he has not been asked to do so [as of this publication in July 1986].[/i]
[i]What now? The last Cardinal nominated by Pius XII, we leave to the historians and theologians the care to study this question thoroughly and to reply to it. We simply leave this grave witness.[/i]

Edited August 15, 2011 by bernard

[missionseeker]

[quote name='bernard' timestamp='1313359446' post='2287780']

Not ignored, I've addressed this several times. We do not know that martyrdom was the most beneficial course of action. We do not know the nature of the threats against him. It is quite possible that someone confessed the entire plot to him binding him under the seal of the confessional.

When he was approached by Louis Hubert Remey in 1985 and asked whether he was elected pope he said "I am bound by the secret."

He did collapse at the second vatican council when defending the primacy of Peter.
[/quote]
[quote name='bernard' timestamp='1313368825' post='2287878']

[i]By Louis Hubert Remy[/i]
[i]Translated into English by Heidi Hagen for[/i]
[i]“The Sangre de Cristo Newsnotes” - No. 55 - December 1987[/i]
[i]Westcliffe, Colorado, U.S.A. - Page 3[/i]
[i]Original text in French published in the[/i]
[i]bulletin SOUS LA BANNIERE No.06 JUILLET-AOUT 1986[/i]
[i]Editions Sainte Jeanne d'Arc[/i]
[i]Director: Mr. A.M. Bonnet de Viller[/i]
[i]“Les Guillots”[/i]
[i]Villegenon[/i]
[i]F -18260 Vailly-sur-Sauldre[/i]
[i]France[/i]


[i]When paying a visit to Monsieur de la Franque­rie, in November 1984, with my friend François Dal­lais, we spoke again of this grave problem. Mon­sieur de La Franquerie, in 1963, was in permanent contact with numerous Roman prelates, and he confirmed to us that he had heard of this confidentially by persons who could be trusted to be well aware of these facts.[/i]
[i]We decided, in order to relieve our conscience, to see Cardinal Siri in Genoa. As Monsieur de la Franquerie has had the opportunity of seeing him in the past and having had pleasant conversations with him, he wrote to him in order to ask for an audience; which the Cardinal granted to us on Friday follow­ing Ascension, 1985.[/i]
[i]In this way on 17 May 1985, we met together at my home in Lyon, Monsieur de la Franquerie, and François Dallais. The evening was marvelous. I admit that I am sensitive to the charm of the very old France of our dear Marquis, and we occupied, un­til a very advanced hour of the night, unforgettable moments by listening to his souvenirs of a fecund and well-filled life. In his souvenirs of Monseigneur [Paul] Jouin, the Marechal Petain or of Pius XII, Monsieur de la Franquerie is unquenchable and passionate.[/i]
[i]The following day we left early to Genoa where the Cardinal was expecting us towards ten hours and granted us an audience of two hours. We were re­ceived with much attention in the wonderful episco­pal palace of Genoa. The Cardinal speaks French very well, was cordial, attentive, and of a courtesy proper to people, who are great by their function, but still greater by their heart. A dialogue took place between these two respectable persons in a diplomatic language which I did not know and which is of a charm and delicacy resulting from the education of hundreds of years, and unfortunately no longer exists today.[/i]
[i]They spoke of several problems of today and the past, which need not be recalled here. Of concern to us, as arranged the evening before, was to speak, first of all, about Cardinal Tisserant’s leaving the conclave. When we recalled this fact, the reaction of Cardinal Siri was clear, precise, firm, and unques­tionable: “No, no one has left the Conclave.” He could only give witness of what he had seen and not of what might have happened, while he was asleep, or behind his back. But what retained our attention was this firmness, this categorical NO of the Cardinal.[/i]
[i]Some moments later, when we asked him wheth­er he had been elected pope, his reaction was com­pletely different. He started by remaining silent for a long time, then raised his eyes to heaven with a ric­tus of suffering and pain, joined his hands and said, weighing each word with gravity: “I am bound by the secret.” Then, after a long silence, heavy for us all, he said again: “I am bound by the secret. This secret is horrible. I would have books to write about the different conclaves. Very serious things have taken place. But I can say nothing.”[/i]
[i]Let’s think about it. If he had not been elected pope, he would have said so with as much prompt­ness and firmness as he had replied to the preceding question. As he had been elected, he could not say so, as he was bound by the secret, and as he could not lie, he took refuge behind this secret.[/i]
[i]In fact, it appears that someone among my trust­worthy friends who knows him very well has as­sured me that the Cardinal had told him that he had been elected pope twice: instead of *Paul VI and in­stead of *Wojtyla. The first time he had refused, the second time he had been obliged to refuse under the pressure of schism![/i]
[i]We were three witnesses who have left very perturbed and practically convinced of his election.[/i]
[i]And now there are serious questions being raised. Has he resigned? Has he been forced to re­sign? What about these elections? What heavy se­crets are weighing upon him?[/i]
[i]During the last Synod, he remained some hours and then left. In spite of his advanced age and the fact that he exceeded 75 years, he has not given his resignation and he has not been asked to do so [as of this publication in July 1986].[/i]
[i]What now? The last Cardinal nominated by Pius XII, we leave to the historians and theologians the care to study this question thoroughly and to reply to it. We simply leave this grave witness.[/i]
[/quote]


Truth is not bound by anything. If he had been elected, he should have fought for Truth. It's not something that one says "well I couldn't do anything about it". St. Joan of Arc, St. Catherine of Sienna, St. Brigid of Ireland, St. Thomas Moore, Miguel Pro, St. Isaac Jocques. I mean, armies have been raised in defense of truth before. Cardinal Siri, had he been elected Pope, would NOT have been powerless, and he would NOT have been bound by any secret.

[bernard]

[quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1313418776' post='2288339']


Truth is not bound by anything. If he had been elected, he should have fought for Truth. It's not something that one says "well I couldn't do anything about it". St. Joan of Arc, St. Catherine of Sienna, St. Brigid of Ireland, St. Thomas Moore, Miguel Pro, St. Isaac Jocques. I mean, armies have been raised in defense of truth before. Cardinal Siri, had he been elected Pope, would NOT have been powerless, and he would NOT have been bound by any secret.
[/quote]

Well that's easy for you to say. And I hope you are holding these last five popes to these high ideals. None of those people you mention would have gone and kissed the Koran like John Paul II did or taken part in any inter-religious ceremonies.

Canon Law states "resignation is invalid by law if it was made out of grave fear unjustly inflicted, fraud, substantial error, or simony" (1917 Code of Canon Law, Canon 185) So if he was elected in 1958 (as the white smoke indicates) and was threatened into abdicating his resignation was invalid and he remained the lawful pope.

Whether he fought for his claim to the papacy afterward is beside the point.

Edited August 15, 2011 by bernard

[bernard]

Unfortunately most of Siri's interviews were in Italian. Here is a translation of one with commentary that was done near the end of his life. I didn't post the entire thing, follow the link for the whole article.
[url="http://www.eclipseofthechurch.com/chapter_xvii_1.htm"]http://www.eclipseof...pter_xvii_1.htm[/url]
While Giuseppe Siri may not have announced publicly that he had ever been elected pope, he did throw us a few intriguing hints to that effect some months before he died in a taped interview with Italian journalist Benny Lai. This took place on September 18, 1988. Lai would later include a transcript of the recording as the final chapter (XVII) of his book about Siri, [i]Il Papa non Eletto, [/i]or [i]The Un-Elected Pope[/i], which came out in 1993.

We at this website first read about this in a review by Lucio Brunelli that appeared in a 1993 issue of the Italian periodical [i]30 Days[/i]. The revelation that Lai’s biography of Siri provides new details “about the secret affairs of the last conclave” naturally intrigued us. So did the news that Siri says in his taped interview such things as “Masonic infiltrations in the Church? I’m sure of it.” Implying that he himself heard the tape, Brunelli says Siri also gave Lai names and addresses of high-ranking prelates whom he suspected of being secret Masons.

Although Lai, unfortunately for us, failed to include their actual names in his manuscript, just hearing about such “juicy” particulars was enough to make us obtain a copy of the book. With the help of a native Italian who lives in our area, we even produced a translation of the all-important Chapter XVII that is included here. During the 1990’s, and into the new century, we were actively engaged in the Siri research project, and eventually Gary Giuffré, who headed the effort, used an earlier form of our translation in writing a commentary on Chapter XVII. Whereas this was shown to certain contacts of his, he never had it published — certainly not in the [i]Sangre de Christo Newsnotes[/i], as has been alleged elsewhere on the internet.

Recently we revised our English version of the Siri interview slightly with the help of yet another Italian translator. For our readers’ convenience, a copy of the result is posted below in PDF format. In reading this, do keep in mind that it is the transcript of a recording, not a carefully constructed essay. As such, while somewhat disjointed and elliptical, as well as enigmatic, it also conveys a sense of spontaneity and immediacy, as it projects Siri’s thoughts on the problems faced by a newly-elected pope — but just any old pope? Does Siri have anyone in particular in mind when he says:

[b][i]“A newly elected Pope — barring a miracle, and the Lord doesn’t do unnecessary miracles — what does he know, poor man, of the task awaiting him? He has to be integrated into his new position. The question which settles a pontificate is the choice of the Secretary of State, because it is he who must educate the Pope."[/i][/b]

[b][i]"Not all Popes become such after going through the school to become one. The schooling, whether he wants it or not, occurs before the election, when the positions, suitability for the positions, and dedication to the positions, are well matched.”[/i][/b]

Now, readers will realize this is not simply a commentary on the papacy in general if they note the sense of personal involvement, of frustration, as exemplified in the phrase, [b]“… what does he know, poor man, of the task awaiting him?”[/b] While Siri speaks here in the third person, in the next paragraph he switches suddenly to the first, thus indicating the true subject of his discourse. Indeed, the emotion in his voice intensifies, as he turns to the crucial matter at hand. There is a sense of immediacy that cannot be denied:

[b][i]“I say this because I have great remorse. I have faith in the forgiveness of the Lord, and, therefore, I am at peace. During the first two conclaves in which I participated, my candidature was presented by an influential cardinal. He himself told me that all the French were behind him. The others, then, followed the French. The Germans held back, but gradually, along the way, joined the rest. I said no, and if you elect me I will say no. I have made a mistake, I understand it today. Today? For some years. I did wrong, for I would have avoided completing certain actions. . . I wish to say — but I am afraid to say it — making certain mistakes. Therefore I have had great remorse and I have asked forgiveness of God. I hope that God forgives me.”[/i][/b]

This truly is amazing. Towards the end of his life, a well-respected Prince of the Church prostrates himself before the public in an attitude of remorse! Surely such humility is rare — or unheard of — among prelates in recent times. John Paul II, of course, apologized a lot, but only for the supposed failings of others — or the Church as a whole –– not his own. What in heaven’s name is going on here? The reason for his remorse, his sense of guilt, obviously involves his role regarding the papacy — but why? If the official version that he was never elected pope is correct, why should this bother him?

Edited August 15, 2011 by bernard

[cmotherofpirl]

Bernard after reading all this I don't think any of its true.
If it were true this person was elected pope it is still meaningless because A] he refused the first time, B] the cardinals didn't like the election result the second time and corrected it.
Either way we have a man - Pope John Paul II the Great -on the way to sainthood, a true man of God.
Man proposes, GOD disposes.

[MargaretTeresa]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1313450320' post='2288636']
Bernard after reading all this I don't think any of its true.
If it were true this person was elected pope it is still meaningless because A] he refused the first time, B] the cardinals didn't like the election result the second time and corrected it.
Either way we have a man - Pope John Paul II the Great -on the way to sainthood, a true man of God.
Man proposes, GOD disposes.
[/quote]

I must agree.

And Bernard, I have seen nothing but propaganda for your beliefs. I'm sorry you can't accept Vatican II. I have been to both types of Masses, and each have a unique beauty to them. They are still the Mass, and it is still the Body and Blood of Christ I am partaking of. [mod] edit. Ad hominem attack. [/mod]

Propaganda pleases some here on the earth while the Truth pleases the Lord.\\

Pax and God bless

Edited August 16, 2011 by homeschoolmom
ad hominem

[Aloysius]

all the evidence you've posted points to Siri saying no to his election, and therefore not becoming pope. the only indication that he accepted then abdicated is the appearance of white smoke, but that's easily explained; Cardinal Siri recieved enough votes so they burned it for white smoke, but then Siri made known that he wished not to become pope and therefore they made the smoke black. there was likely a bit of confusion inside the conclave, a man saying "no" might be simply coming accross as having a false humility, sort of like when someone is offered money and they refuse the first time and the second but finally begrudgingly accept; it prolly took a little bit to get the clear message through that Siri definitely was refusing the election.

if it was under durress for whatever reason, then so be it; the election of popes in history is littered with corrupt influences. sounds like Siri believes he made a mistake in refusing and will seek God's forgiveness for that.

it is Siri's actions that lead me to believe he refused his election rather than abdicated under durress. his actions indicate a man who did not believe that he was the Pope.

it is a very interesting discussion, but the desire to make Siri a clandestine secret pope is too tempting so the conspiracy theorists ignore the other explanation: Siri simply refused his election. perhaps due to a conspiracy or whatever, which would not have to involve all the cardinals (because once Siri refused, those cardinals not involved in such a conspiracy would obviously move on to choosing a different person rather than trying to continue to elect Siri against his own will), only a few influential ones. I could see something like this happening, but I think it's a leap to assume that Siri was a secret pope who never claimed his rights as Pontiff. more likely Siri was elected and refused (for whatever reason, it would be speculation, but it's not like foul play is impossible, many shady occurences happen around Rome among carreerist churchmen, the human side of the Church within the Vatican is not always as saintly as we would hope it is)

[bernard]

the smoke is NOT released until the candidate has accepted the office and taken his name. That only stands to reason, many candidates recieve the votes and then refuse.

Father Khoat went to visit Siri and confirmed that he was pope. If you think Father Khoat was lying I understand, but he did go to Genoa for the specific reason of asking whether he was the true pope. The meeting took place and there are pictures there to prove it.

I'll agree that there are problems with Malachi Martin and Paul Williams but there are also two other men in good standing who said Siri was elected and cast aside.

They could all be lying too i suppose.