bernard Posted August 13, 2011 Author Share Posted August 13, 2011 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1313194716' post='2286729'] And you do know that revealing what happens in the papal enclave carries the penalty of excommunication? [/quote] The cardinals have been talking about conclaves for a long time, the press has often obtained vote tallies, etc. They also knew about the veto in 1903 presented by Franz Joseph. i know that is the rule but I don't think it really gets inforced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peach_cube Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 [quote name='bernard' timestamp='1313194804' post='2286730'] There could be various reasons why he dis this. There is a lot of evidence that he was doing damage control and wanted to keep his position of influence. There is that story about Paul VI throwing a bottle of ink at him during a heated argument. At the council it is believed that Siri effectively stopped them from reducing the position of the Pope to just another Bishop. [/quote] Stories and speculation do not make something true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernard Posted August 13, 2011 Author Share Posted August 13, 2011 [quote name='peach_cube' timestamp='1313194879' post='2286731'] Check your source. He did not say 1958 see Loeffler, John, [i]The Wisdom of Malachi Martin[/i], Radio Liberty, Soquel, March 1997. Even if he did Martin is a dubious source to say the least. [/quote] He says it in the video, you can hear it for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 [quote name='bernard' timestamp='1313194964' post='2286732'] The cardinals have been talking about conclaves for a long time, the press has often obtained vote tallies, etc. They also knew about the veto in 1903 presented by Franz Joseph. i know that is the rule but I don't think it really gets inforced. [/quote] well to me, that would cast some sort of doubt on any information that is supposedly from the conclaves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peach_cube Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 [quote name='bernard' timestamp='1313194999' post='2286734'] He says it in the video, you can hear it for yourself. [/quote] The video you posted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peach_cube Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 (edited) [quote name='bernard' timestamp='1313194629' post='2286728'] Well Martin said he got enough votes in 1958 and 1963 but he refused it under duress, and possibly again in 1978 [/quote] Any other source than Malachi Martin? He was released from his vows of obedience and poverty. How much money do think he made selling controversial books? Edited August 13, 2011 by peach_cube Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernard Posted August 13, 2011 Author Share Posted August 13, 2011 (edited) [quote name='peach_cube' timestamp='1313195217' post='2286736'] The video you posted? [/quote] yes here maybe 7:20 minutes in [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQp00j4H3Kg[/media] Edited August 13, 2011 by bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 (edited) You know what's cool? The video says "the 1/2 a billion Catholic's around the world". Today there are well over a billion Catholics. That's pretty amesome Edited August 13, 2011 by Amppax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 So, bernard, you're suggesting that the man who believed himself to be rightfully elected to the office of pope by the guidence of the Holy Spirit to lead the Church instituted and protected by the Creator of the Universe, not once, not twice but FOUR times was intimidated by mere men from doing the most important job in the entire world? Seriously? People have given their lives for way lesser causes than that. Sounds to me that he didn't really believe that he was elected or he didn't really trust that the Lord was in control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peach_cube Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 [quote name='bernard' timestamp='1313199848' post='2286784'] yes here maybe 7:20 minutes in [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQp00j4H3Kg[/media] [/quote] Thanks, I don't know how I missed that. I still don't think that you or anyone else should put their faith in what Malachi Martin has to say about the topic, he was someone has profited the most off of spreading controversy. Why would you believe everything that he has said in his books/interviews to be absolute truth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernard Posted August 13, 2011 Author Share Posted August 13, 2011 I don't know if he was elected four times. I do think he was elected in 1958, other people say he was elected in 1963. There is a New York Times article that says he would have been elected in 1978 if he had of accepted Cardinal Benelli as his secretary of state. When Innocent II was elected and cast aside he went and hid in France for 7 or 8 years, it wasn't until St. Bernard gathered support for him that he was able to take back the throne. He said in a 30 Magazine interview near the end of his life that he had suffered greatly, but he had trust in God's mercy. There are other things that he said about the conclaves, I don't have them at my fingertips. I think its fair to conclude that the enemy agents who pulled this off had planned it very carefully in advance and he was perhaps blindsided. We do not know exactly what he was threatened with or how much of a grip criminal elements had on the college of cardinals. It seems to me he should have done more, but we don't know. Perhaps if he attempted to tell the truth he would have a little heart attack like John Paul I did when he tried to clean house at the Vatican. In short, I'm saying its hard to judge what should and shouldn't have been done unless we were in his shoes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernard Posted August 13, 2011 Author Share Posted August 13, 2011 [quote name='peach_cube' timestamp='1313206288' post='2286824'] Thanks, I don't know how I missed that. I still don't think that you or anyone else should put their faith in what Malachi Martin has to say about the topic, he was someone has profited the most off of spreading controversy. Why would you believe everything that he has said in his books/interviews to be absolute truth? [/quote] I don't but it's him, Paul Williams, Father Charles Roux, this Scortesci guy, plus some of the members of the Vatican noble guard, and his own statements when he was approached on two occasions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG45 Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 Wow this thread expanded while I was gone. And I'm with HSM, even if this video were correct, and I don't believe it is, then a man chosen by the Holy Spirit would fight for his position as Vicar of Christ. He would not simply bow in obedience to someone on four separate times after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernard Posted August 13, 2011 Author Share Posted August 13, 2011 [quote name='BG45' timestamp='1313207395' post='2286831'] Wow this thread expanded while I was gone. And I'm with HSM, even if this video were correct, and I don't believe it is, then a man chosen by the Holy Spirit would fight for his position as Vicar of Christ. He would not simply bow in obedience to someone on four separate times after. [/quote] We don't know how much choice he had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peach_cube Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 (edited) [quote name='bernard' timestamp='1313207366' post='2286830'] I don't but it's him, Paul Williams, Father Charles Roux, this Scortesci guy, plus some of the members of the Vatican noble guard, and his own statements when he was approached on two occasions. [/quote] Williams made money off of made up controversies. Martin made money off of making up controversies (though he was better at it than Williams). Both of them have profited too much to be a trusted source. As far as the other two and the guards go, provide a source. It is meaningless if I can't see what they said, what access they would have to gain such knowledge, or whether it is just hearsay. People just making statements about a topic is not evidence, people lie, people have agendas, and some people believe them and spread those lies in order to meet their own agendas -- look at Jack Chick. Edited August 13, 2011 by peach_cube Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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