Aloysius Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 say that the God we believe in didn't exist, but there was instead an obviously evil god who was all powerful, who had his followers do wicked things to cause suffering for no reason, to lie and murder and steal, and if you didn't submit to him you would be eternally punished with no hope of ever ending the suffering. you die and are given the choice: serve the evil god, and be a part of directly causing evil things to happen, or suffer eternally for your moral stance against him. what do you do? would anyone have the strength to be good in a topsy-turvy world where evil was so powerful? discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Wow. That is a pretty incredible idea. As much as I would like to say that I would be good in such a backwards world, I would have to admit that I probably couldn't. As for the if anyone would, I would say yes. But because the nature of most people is to be self-serving, i think this number would be very limited indeed. However, looking through history, there are obvious examples of people who completely went against their own self interest to do what they knew was right. So it is clear that people are capable of doing good. These circumstances would obviously try even the strongest people though. I honestly don't know how I think people would act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 (edited) That would be horrible. Thank God He is loving and good. Edited August 9, 2011 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartjp2 Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 DISCLAIMER: My capitalization of the word 'God' is based on the concept of the creator, sustainer, and arbiter of reality of a universe, be it real or hypothetical. Only pronouns that stand for God Himself will be capitalized respectively. It's interesting that you call this 'God' evil. If he is God the same way the God who revealed Himself to us is God, then what constitutes evil and good? If this is a topsy-turvy universe, wouldn't good ultimately exist in this God? Can one use the concepts of this universe to define those of a hypothetical universe that is somehow inverted? If the God whom we serve did not exist and instead another God existed in place of Him, and I were in this universe and this God promoted what we call evil, I would be justified in committing acts that we call evil, certainly. I, however, would not be justified in acting in a way that we call moral. To what could I appeal to say with confidence that what we call goodness is actually good? Objectively speaking, if I were what we call good, I wouldn't need strength, virtue, or morality to uphold me because the truth would be against me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rizz_loves_jesus Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Would there even be such a thing as goodness in this world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 (edited) This thread obviously touches (ok, more like jumps right into) the issue of whether morality exists separately from God or whether it is dependent on Him. I would say in this crazy world we are imagining (although our own is pretty whack itself) I would be comforted by the idea of a morality that exists independent of this god, but at the same time, I couldn't admit to that idea without at the same time morality is independent of God, which is something that I'm pretty sure i don't believe (as in, morality is dependent on the existence of God) Edited August 9, 2011 by Amppax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 everything is the same except this god promotes hate instead of love, death instead of life, falsity instead of truth. but he's still the creator and sustainer in this hypothetical. so then, is morality just what God says it is? those who get to go to heaven have to kill innocent babies and make sure those babies' souls suffer in hell eternally. but the god says it's okay. is it wrong to stand against such a god? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartjp2 Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1312864106' post='2284572'] This thread obviously touches (ok, more like jumps right into) the issue of whether morality exists separately from God or whether it is dependent on Him. I would say in this crazy world we are imagining (although our own is pretty whack itself) I would be comforted by the idea of a morality that exists independent of this god, but at the same time, I couldn't admit to that idea without at the same time morality is independent of God, which is something that I'm pretty sure i don't believe (as in, morality is dependent on the existence of God) [/quote] This. Because all things that exist were created by God (visible and invisible), there's no way that moral truths can exist apart from Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartjp2 Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 [quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1312864278' post='2284580'] everything is the same except this god promotes hate instead of love, death instead of life, falsity instead of truth. but he's still the creator and sustainer in this hypothetical. so then, is morality just what God says it is? those who get to go to heaven have to kill innocent babies and make sure those babies' souls suffer in hell eternally. but the god says it's okay. is it wrong to stand against such a god? [/quote] Based on what you said, I think it would be wrong to defy this hypothetical God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 (edited) interesting. I think that demanding obedience to such a god is akin to saying that 'might makes right'. such a being would be omnipotent, and the source of the whole universe, but if that being demanded that I torture an innocent man or murder a baby, I would not consider that to be moral even if the being said that it was. so I guess that comes across as me holding to a principal of morality that is not dependent upon God, ie that I have a morality that I would follow whether or not an omnipotent being said I should or not; indeed, whether an ultimate god was moral or not, I would want to be moral, whether a God existed at all or not, I would have morality of course, in our reality I do hold that God is by His nature Goodness itself. things aren't good just because God decides they are by whim, things are good because God is good by nature and He created the other good things. and I love God not just because He's omnipotent and the source of all creation, I love Him for being so good. but all of that would not exist in a world where the only difference was that the god was evil; I would hate the god who was evil even if that god was the omnipotent source of all existence and the creator and sustainer of all things. anyway, I started this thread thinking there might be some interesting discussion generated between theists and atheists on the phorum by this particular hypothetical I'll wait for more replies before I offer more thoughts, kind of want to see where the discussion goes on its own. Edited August 9, 2011 by Aloysius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 [i]Non serviam! [/i]Basically the proverbial middle finger. Existence would be ultimate terror and despair, might as well be pissed about it. Hell would be all there is I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Would it be worth trying to hope and live as though there is some lasting good in existence, even if this probably wasn't so? I mean, isn't some hope, no matter how minuscule, better than total despair? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 [quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1312885822' post='2284659'] interesting. I think that demanding obedience to such a god is akin to saying that 'might makes right'. such a being would be omnipotent, and the source of the whole universe, but if that being demanded that I torture an innocent man or murder a baby, I would not consider that to be moral even if the being said that it was. so I guess that comes across as me holding to a principal of morality that is not dependent upon God, ie that I have a morality that I would follow whether or not an omnipotent being said I should or not; indeed, whether an ultimate god was moral or not, I would want to be moral, whether a God existed at all or not, I would have morality of course, in our reality I do hold that God is by His nature Goodness itself. things aren't good just because God decides they are by whim, things are good because God is good by nature and He created the other good things. and I love God not just because He's omnipotent and the source of all creation, I love Him for being so good. but all of that would not exist in a world where the only difference was that the god was evil; I would hate the god who was evil even if that god was the omnipotent source of all existence and the creator and sustainer of all things. anyway, I started this thread thinking there might be some interesting discussion generated between theists and atheists on the phorum by this particular hypothetical I'll wait for more replies before I offer more thoughts, kind of want to see where the discussion goes on its own. [/quote] How would you recognise that a god were evil? An evil god may inspire people to write scripture, to make deceptive assertions that it is Good. It may even confuse you by telling stories of how it went about killing almost every human, animal and plant on the planet, however you would still love it and think it is perfect and good. It could tell of stories of setting bears onto small children for the crime of teasing a man about his bald head and yet you still would think this god is Good. It may make bold statements that gay people should be put to death or that people who work on Sunday should be put to death or people who have sex out of wedlock or with people who are already married to someone else should be put to death. You would still think this god is Good. It may tell stories of gambling on someone's life, even knowing that the outcome of that gamble would result in this person's loved ones being killed, and you would still think this god is Good. It could kill all the first born of a race of people just to prove that it is god and powerful, and you would think it is Good. I don't think any Christian could think the god of the bible is anything but Good regardless of whether the bible was inspired by god or the devil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1312887688' post='2284664'] How would you recognise that a god were evil? An evil god may inspire people to write scripture, to make deceptive assertions that it is Good. It may even confuse you by telling stories of how it went about killing almost every human, animal and plant on the planet, however you would still love it and think it is perfect and good. It could tell of stories of setting bears onto small children for the crime of teasing a man about his bald head and yet you still would think this god is Good. It may make bold statements that gay people should be put to death or that people who work on Sunday should be put to death or people who have sex out of wedlock or with people who are already married to someone else should be put to death. You would still think this god is Good. It may tell stories of gambling on someone's life, even knowing that the outcome of that gamble would result in this person's loved ones being killed, and you would still think this god is Good. It could kill all the first born of a race of people just to prove that it is god and powerful, and you would think it is Good. I don't think any Christian could think the god of the bible is anything but Good regardless of whether the bible was inspired by god or the devil. [/quote] Hahaha. [i]Go on up, you bald head! [/i] Srsly though, meesa thikin you hijackin Al's fun thread a bit here. Maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 There should be a spell in WoW or something called [b]Summon She-Bears[/b]. When elite clerics are really mad... [spoiler] [img]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/phatmass/she-bears.jpg[/img] [img]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/phatmass/shebears.jpg[/img] [img]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/variosity/blackhawk_sg.gif[/img] [img]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/variosity/bear_wrestling.gif[/img] NOM NOM NOM [img]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/STP/NomNOMNOMNomNOMNOM_73f422_559987.gif[/img] [/spoiler] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now