"charismatic Catholics" - Theology Debate

[AudreyGrace]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1313031592' post='2285694']

But from my understanding....it is not always done this way.
[/quote]

Then that's the individual's fault. From my experience, it's done this way most of the time.

[AudreyGrace]

The early Church greeted each other with a kiss during the Mass. At least that's my understanding from what I've read.

[Papist]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1313082632' post='2285957']

i usually give a fistbump
[/quote]
A traditional fistbump? [img]http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/tfrizz85/smilies/fistbump-white.gif[/img] or one of these liberal fistbumps? [img]http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae98/veggiewoppa/Smilies for forum/dv_fistbump.gif[/img]

[Maximilianus]

nm, carry on

Edited August 11, 2011 by Maximilianus

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1313082632' post='2285957']

i usually give a chestbump
[/quote]
fxd


[quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1313089252' post='2286026']
The early Church greeted each other with a kiss during the Mass. At least that's my understanding from what I've read.
[/quote]
We are not the early Church.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1313089165' post='2286025']

Then that's the individual's fault. From my experience, it's done this way most of the time.
[/quote]

In that case I would be supportive. In other cases, I would most likely think that the person is not really exhibiting the Gift of Speaking in Tongues. Even though they are portraying that.

Edited August 11, 2011 by infinitelord1

[Deb]

[quote name='bernard' timestamp='1313048784' post='2285836']
For those of you who like the charismatic services/ modes of worship if a future pope, or this one for that matter were to in no uncertain terms condemn it would you return to more traditional modes of worship?
[/quote]

It is a funny question because the Pope would like to see more people open to the workings of the Holy Spirit. One does need to hop around, speak outwardly in tongues or any of the physical things that are manifested to still be charismatic, so to speak. However, if a Pope condemned anything that was something I was doing, I would cease and desist. Obedience is primary. I however am caught up in traditional modes of worship, with just some added music I don't like. The Mass is powerful beyond words because of the holiness of my pastor and the number of parishioners that have opened their lives up fully to the workings of the Holy Spirit. I would like to see the entire church go back to traditional modes of worship, such as kneeling to receive the Lord and on the tongue, not the filthy hand and the peace deal done before the readings so that we do not have to turn our backs on Jesus on the Altar. Some churches have the peace thing as the Mass starts and it makes a lot more sense to come before the offeratory than after the consecration. I am a traditionalist who God led directly to the church he wanted me at and to the priest he wanted me to listen to. It turned out to be charismatic. I have been offering up things for four years and God has been gracing me for four years.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1312941449' post='2285262']

So much charity here.

Otherwise, obviously because there can be no theological evidence (which I feel like is being used almost in a empiricist sense, which I find ironic) proves that there is little value in the Renewal as far as you are concerned.

God Bless
[/quote]

There is no evidence that this supposed "renewal" comes from the Holy Spirit outside of Protestants and some Catholics saying that it does.

[quote name='BG45' timestamp='1312943996' post='2285277']

Wait we're trying to prove all of this empirically? In that case we could be in trouble, because really we're relying on a lot of things here:
1) We believe that a man rose from the dead on the word of eyewitnesses. Eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable, usually around the 20% accuracy range.
2) We believe that this same man died for our sins, but can we empirically measure this sin even?
3) We believe that we have souls; I know there were once physicians who tried weighing people as they died to get empirical proof on the weight of the soul and failed.
4) We believe in a Holy Spirit that can't be recorded on any sort of data capturing medium except in actions that it inspires.
5) We believe in God the Father, a God whom we have not seen as well.
6) We believe that the man who rose from the dead also has a Real Presence in the Eucharist, which aside from Eucharistic Miracles is hard to empirically prove.
7) We believe that demons and angels exist, even though we don't see them (usually), and if someone sees them, we're back into the unreliability of eyewitness testimony.
8) We believe in a Virgin Birth, with only the written statements of two thousand years ago to back it up, from an era when people wrote about gods walking the Earth.
9) We believe in an afterlife that can't be empirically measured.
10) We believe in baptism leaving an indellible mark on the soul; a soul that as previously stated can't be empirically measured.

Faith and reason can coexist, and it's good to use both. As Adrestia's JP2 quote in her signature says, "[color=#4B0082][size=3]Science can purify religion from error and superstition; religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes. ... Only a dynamic relationship between theology and science can reveal those limits which support the integrity of either discipline, so that theology does not profess a pseudo-science and science does not become an unconscious theology."[/size][/color]

That doesn't mean that everything in faith can be proven empirically. But, while we don't throw reason out the window, the qualitative experience, the "fruits" as it can be called in the Bible, are a matter that may be individual in nature.
[/quote]

Umm how should I say this? Failure... there is much more evidence for the virgin birth, then there is for these supposed charismatic gifts.

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1312946776' post='2285324']I think that if it goes against what scripture says then people have the right to be skeptical. I'm sure that there is some level of validity to the Renewal. I just think that people go overboard. Thats all.[/quote]

Not just scripture... go back and re-read my posts on this thread. There is no evidence period.

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1312947529' post='2285336']people cited multiple books, and multiple threads. are you telling me you've read all of those, and haven't found anything? Until you can say that, please, don't make any judgments.

edited for charity.[/quote]

So because some guy who happens to engage in such behavior writes a book with no evidence outside of his own emotional experience, I'm supposed to believe him? Sorry but first and foremost this entire thread people have just said, "you should read such and such book", they never cited from the book evidence that would prove their point. They simple insist that because some guy/girl put their opinions into written format, that somehow it's credible. Please have a little bit more depth then that, will you?

In every amount of truth. My mother is charismatic and I have read hundreds of thousands of books since the time that I was old enough to read on this subject. Rather then list off all of the books that I suggest you read, I'll just list one. Orthodoxy and the religion of the future by Serephim Rose. The chapter on this subject is short and to the point but as solid of an argument as one could get. If you like, I'd be more then willing to type out the chapter and post it here on my next day off?
[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1312949535' post='2285373']But it doesn't go against Scripture...if anything Scripture merely confirms it.

But again we've gone over this.[/quote]

No it doesn't, there is not one single scriptures in the entire new testament that confirms it. However there are tons that give instruction that is contrary to it.
[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1312954107' post='2285405']Someone, in this thread, said that Speaking in Tongues is not always done with an interpreter. Yet Scripture says that it should always be done with an interpreter.[/quote]

That's right. Notice that nobody here will dig into what the scriptures actually say? Not one single person here has cracked the scriptures and given evidence from them.
[quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1313026478' post='2285591']Scripture says if there is no interpreter, that the person should pray in quiet. That's not the same thing as saying there has to always be an interpreter.[/quote]

It doesn't say "pray in an unknown tongue quietly" to one's self. It makes a strong case that speaking in tongues is a sign performed by believers for the sake of edifying unbelievers, is done with an interpreter and has a specific purpose for which Charismatics completely are in contrast of.
[quote name='Seven77' timestamp='1313029998' post='2285658']Please define "charismatic doctrine"... i sincerely want to understand your view.[/quote]

That would be quite extensive and many here will fight over semantics because by definition, it clearly has no evidence. However I will entertain this with you.

Charismatics get their name from a greek term meaning "gift". They believe that their "gifts" come from the Holy Spirit and include speaking in an unknown tongue publically [which they call speaking in tongues], praying in an unknown tongue that they call a "prayer language", "prophesy", etc. I put these in brackets because they claim that their rooted in scripture. 1 Corinthians 12-14 to be specific and once again they are mistaken. These "gifts" are in stark contrast to the scriptures of 1 Corinthians 12-14.

- Their tongues more often then not do not have specific interpretation. However St. Paul wrote that there is always to be interpretation otherwise it has no purpose whatsoever and is edifying to nobody.
- Their psuedu form of speaking in tongues is an unknown language, where as in Corinthians it was a known language that could be literally interpreted such as English to Spanish
- St. Paul wrote that prophesy is for believers but speaking in tongues was a gift for unbelievers. However Charismatics insist that their "prayer language" is for self edification and that speaking in tongues in a congregational setting is to "edify the church". Sorry but the Church is believers, St. Paul said that it's for unbelievers.
- They often boast of having "the gift of prophesy", yet more often then not their prophesies are either so general that it's hard to prove if they come true or not, or are specific and turn out to be false. In which most charismatics justify such actions as a "mistake". Sorry but throughout the Bible false prophesy has never been considered a "mistake". It was a deliberate offense punishable by death, much like the choice to murder somebody. Do these false prophets get denounced? Not remotely, they get brushed off as a "mistake" or claims that the individual made a common error and thought that he/she heard G-d but was mistaken. Then there is my personal favorite, "They heard G-d but misinterpreted him much like humans do with each other". Never once in scripture does it say that Jonah thought that he heard G-d but was mistaken, or "misinterpreted him". No, when G-d speaks, he speaks clear without the possibility of communication error as such. That's why he was able to hold the Isrealites to the high standard that he did, in which they'd be put to death if they false prophesied.

I don't deny that Pope John Paul II has given his support behind this "movement" and I think he was mistaken for doing so. However I never heard him engage in it. As a matter of fact, no pope has ever engaged in it and more importantly he did say that he urged caution with it. His support was a weak one in which he thought that maybe, somehow, it could renew the Catholic Church where numbers have severely dwindled in a materialistic world. I don't agree with him but I can see the pressure for him to do so.

Again, this is a prime reason why I'm not Catholic. Probably 50% of the reason or more.
[quote name='Deb' timestamp='1313030463' post='2285668']
All Charismatic gifts are to be used for the building up of the church, for the sanctification of the members and for the Glory of God. The early Christians lived with the power of the Holy Spirit motivating them, leading them to prayer, attracting them to the Lord. They were promised to us by God, they are mentioned in the bible, they are manifested all through the Acts of the APostles. Sadly, the power of the Holy Spirit was downplayed for centuries. Now, people are being graced with an awakening, a new release or baptism in the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is bringing into their lives a new way, new gifts, graces, deeper virtue and the love of God. I know people who do have the gift of knowledge, people who have had the veil lifted and can see between heaven and earth, people who can heal by laying on of hands, Speaking in tongues is the least of all gifts and the least useful. There are different circumstances in which that gift is used and if the Holy Spirit flows out of you like a river and your prayer turns to tongues without your active participation and you are filled with the Spirit speaking through you up to God, you know your words are prayer going up to the heavens.
Are there those who are overly exhuberant? Yes. They are very annoying. Are there those who may just be doing things for show? Yes. Are there those who are like spiritual gluttons, going from place to place searching for a spiritual high? Yes.
But, many, many people have had their lives turned upside down and completely around by the gifts of the Spirit. The Spirit can work in a person without their knowledge, he can wake you in the night a dozen times while you are praying in tongues or singing praise or laughing in joy, all while he transforms your heart and your mind and your soul and making you a fool for your love of Christ.
Pentecost didn't just happen a long time ago. It is still happening and it is happening to those who open themselves up to a deeper conversion. You can receive the gifts of the Spirit without turning into a jumping/clapping/yelling lunatic. Some can't and I try to stay as far away from them as possible. You take the good things you like and you leave the things you dont' like. God does not expect everyone to work in the same manner, worship in the same manner or even be brought to holiness in the same manner or level.
If you find yourself a church where the Holy Spirit is alive and lifting the members up, stick around and see what it will do for you. My church would be considered Charismatic because the Holy Spirit is very alive in many of the members. The pastor is beyond reverant during the Mass and his Masses are insanely powerful. God is present in a manner that I have not found in most churches. People grow there,in personal sanctifcation and in love of each other. Now the music, I don't like it. I wrestle with that all the time. I offer it up and know I mostly only have to suffer it before and after Mass and then the Mass is where I lose myself in my Lord Jesus. I may speak in tongues in praise, when appropriate, I will not stand up and do the arm raise thing. I can barely sit upright with the power of the Mass, I can stand up when Mass is over, but only briefly. I am usually overcome with the power of communion with my Lord.
If a church is solid in its teachings, in line with Rome and its Bishops (ours is conservative) and bringing people into the faith and teaching the members to grow in their personal relationship with the Lord, then the charismatic tendencies are building up that church.
I don't usually do Charismatic conferences, they make my head blow off. I take what I can use and I leave the rest. The Lord directs me to what he wants me to learn and use in my life.
Pray unceasingly, asking the Holy Spirit to Come and grace us with all the gifts, graces and fruits that he has for us. Our transformation will be never ending. Do Not Be Afraid. It is mostly all good. [/quote]

Unfortunately there is no evidence and many Charismatic Catholics engage in their activities DURRING MASS, not afterwards.
[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1313031592' post='2285694']But from my understanding....it is not always done this way.[/quote]

[Sarah147]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1313082632' post='2285957']

i usually give a fistbump
[/quote]


I lock my hands together in a prayer way and hold my hands to my chin, as I gently bow and say "peace" to people. Holding my hands tight together and to my chin has helped people understand that I don't shake.

[Sarah147]

People have got to be careful about all that tongues praying. A Sister with the FI Sisters said a man shared that he was at a Church or gathering where a woman was praying or singing in tongues. The tongues she was praying was in a language unknown to her; he knew that language and realized that she was praising the enemy. He told her, and I hope she quit.

[Amppax]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1313351447' post='2287723']

So because some guy who happens to engage in such behavior writes a book with no evidence outside of his own emotional experience, I'm supposed to believe him? Sorry but first and foremost this entire thread people have just said, "you should read such and such book", they never cited from the book evidence that would prove their point. They simple insist that because some guy/girl put their opinions into written format, that somehow it's credible. Please have a little bit more depth then that, will you?

In every amount of truth. My mother is charismatic and I have read hundreds of thousands of books since the time that I was old enough to read on this subject. Rather then list off all of the books that I suggest you read, I'll just list one. Orthodoxy and the religion of the future by Serephim Rose. The chapter on this subject is short and to the point but as solid of an argument as one could get. If you like, I'd be more then willing to type out the chapter and post it here on my next day off?

[/quote]

Alright, some actual citation of evidence! I'll check that out.

But in answer to your taking offense at me calling you out, that's pretty hilarious. You come and start a thread, accusing people of not being Catholic. You fail to cite any evidence for your position, and then come back a couple of days later and really don't cite anything (i will give you that you reference things, but barely) and simply dismiss the movement. So, fail, to use your terminology.

Now, I will completely agree with you that it is entirely possible that some people have taken the Charismatic spirituality to extremes, but that in no way would implicate the entire thing as flawed. Just because you have had some experiences where you believe that people took it too far just means that, in your opinion, those people took it too far, and they were doing something wrong. For you to go and generalize that the entire movement is not Catholic and flawed from this is a logical fallacy. You assume that the whole is the same as the parts. If we were all to make that assumption, then I'd have to get the heck out of the Church, because plenty of Catholics have done things that are "taken too far". This sort of argument is very insulting. It's the same type of argument people I've talk to have made when saying the entire priesthood is flawed because there are pedophiles, or Catholics worship Mary, because they've seen examples of misplaced devotion.

I've had a bit of experience with Charismatic worship, but wouldn't say I am a expert on Charismatic spirituality. It seems from your posts that you've put a lot of thought into this and have done a lot of studying, and are much more of an expert than I am. I will admit, I haven't done much studying on this. I will also admit my view of Charismatics is based on my experience with them. But it seems that, for all your study, YOUR opinion of them is too based on your experience. So before you go and judge EVERY person that identifies as Charismatics, and judge the entire movement, consider that you may actually be making the same mistake that you are accusing us of making.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1313355768' post='2287741']
People have got to be careful about all that tongues praying. A Sister with the FI Sisters said a man shared that he was at a Church or gathering where a woman was praying or singing in tongues. The tongues she was praying was in a language unknown to her; he knew that language and realized that she was praising the enemy. He told her, and I hope she quit.
[/quote]
No offense intended to you, but that story sounds even goofier than even just glossolalia in its own right.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1313356987' post='2287753']

Alright, some actual citation of evidence! I'll check that out.

But in answer to your taking offense at me calling you out, that's pretty hilarious. You come and start a thread, accusing people of not being Catholic. You fail to cite any evidence for your position, and then come back a couple of days later and really don't cite anything (i will give you that you reference things, but barely) and simply dismiss the movement. So, fail, to use your terminology.[/quote]

I wasn't offended whatsoever. I'd also never accused people of being less Catholic. I made it quite clear that I did not belong to the Roman Catholic Church and that this was a reason as to why I'm not Catholic as most of you define the term. As far as my position, I did cite specific evidence. 1 Corinthians 12-14, specifically, which is the very verses that Charismatics use to justify their doctrine. I have also offered to type out parts of Serephim Rose's book, "Orthodoxy and the religion of the future" if you like but nobody asked for that thus far. However, more importantly it's not on me to prove. Rather it's on charismatics to prove and so far they have provided zero evidence.

[quote]Now, I will completely agree with you that it is entirely possible that some people have taken the Charismatic spirituality to extremes, but that in no way would implicate the entire thing as flawed. Just because you have had some experiences where you believe that people took it too far just means that, in your opinion, those people took it too far, and they were doing something wrong. For you to go and generalize that the entire movement is not Catholic and flawed from this is a logical fallacy. You assume that the whole is the same as the parts. If we were all to make that assumption, then I'd have to get the heck out of the Church, because plenty of Catholics have done things that are "taken too far". This sort of argument is very insulting. It's the same type of argument people I've talk to have made when saying the entire priesthood is flawed because there are pedophiles, or Catholics worship Mary, because they've seen examples of misplaced devotion.[/quote]

It's not "some experiences", it's extensive experiences since the time I was a child, going to church every sunday. It's summer camp, it's the whole nine yards. It's writing papers on it and doing research on it in college. It's believing that it was a gift until my mid 20's and having done an indepth research on it, the earlly church and scriptures. It's having read hundreds and thousands of books about it from the time that I was old enough to read until my mid 20's. It's having interviewed biblical scholars and went to hundreds of different churches to talk to people about it. It's hardly a "bad experience". It's having studied the origins of the movement itself and done comparative analysis to the church history that we know to be true.

[quote]I've had a bit of experience with Charismatic worship, but wouldn't say I am a expert on Charismatic spirituality. It seems from your posts that you've put a lot of thought into this and have done a lot of studying, and are much more of an expert than I am. I will admit, I haven't done much studying on this. I will also admit my view of Charismatics is based on my experience with them. But it seems that, for all your study, YOUR opinion of them is too based on your experience. So before you go and judge EVERY person that identifies as Charismatics, and judge the entire movement, consider that you may actually be making the same mistake that you are accusing us of making.
[/quote]

It's a judgement based upon the facts of their actions and the fruits thereof, which is what the scriptures tell us to do. If someone claims "this comes from the holy spirit", St. Paul told us to discern between what is of the Holy Spirit and what is not. That is what I and those that reject this have done. There is zero scriptural evidence, zero evidence amongst the early church fathers, for this. However there is extensive evidence that this is false, based upon the early church fathers, secular history, and that of Christian history.
[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1313355768' post='2287741']
People have got to be careful about all that tongues praying. A Sister with the FI Sisters said a man shared that he was at a Church or gathering where a woman was praying or singing in tongues. The tongues she was praying was in a language unknown to her; he knew that language and realized that she was praising the enemy. He told her, and I hope she quit.
[/quote]

This is a point that I mentioned in a past post and it was never acknowledged. Most of these charismatic groups believe that "speaking in tongues" is a "gift", as they put it "from the Holy Spirit for all people". Most of them encourage people to get "prayer" with the hopes of obtaining these "gifts", as they call them. On numerous occasions, amongst completely seperate churches, throughout the united states. I'd allowed these individuals to "pray over me", that I "recieve the gift of speaking in tongues" and just to put their gift of "discernment" and "interpretation" to the test, I began reciting the Islamic prayer of, "There is no G-d but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger" in Arabic. What was their response? Unanimously they said, "Praise G-d, he's has been blessed by the Holy Spirit with the gift of tongues. He's speaking the language of angels". If you consider Muhammad to be the messenger of G-d, then I guess you are right but if you do not, then you're severely mistaken.

Nearly all of their "interpreters" said that I was praising G-d. I wouldn't say that this was completely scientific of a study that I'd done for an Anthropology class but I'd be more then willing to put it to the test against any Charismatic group. My guess is that the results would be the same.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1313359294' post='2287778']
No offense intended to you, but that story sounds even goofier than even just glossolalia in its own right.
[/quote]

And no offense to you but "glossolalia", as a greek term, doesn't mean what charismatics claim it means.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1313359888' post='2287784']
And no offense to you but "glossolalia", as a greek term, doesn't mean what charismatics claim it means.
[/quote]
Glossa and laleo? I speak [a] tongue? Seems pretty close, as a greek term, to me.