"charismatic Catholics" - Theology Debate

[1catholic]

[color=#000000]The title asks for a theology debate. Here are some questionable aspects for me. theologically, I'd like an explanation. The last quote is just me acknowledging the approval the mvmnt has received. [/color]

[color=#000000]-Wikipedia's 2cents (coloring is mine)-[/color]

[color=#000000]"Ranaghan [one of the founders of Catholic Charismatic Mvmnt] heard about a new work of [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit"][color=#000000]the Holy Spirit[/color][/url][color=#000000] in the lives of some friends at [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duquesne_University"][color=#000000]Duquesne University[/color][/url][color=#000000]. After an initial period of [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skepticism"][color=#000000]skepticism[/color][/url][color=#000000], their [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer"][color=#000000]prayer[/color][/url][color=#000000] and study led him and his new wife to be [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_in_the_Holy_Spirit"][color=#ff0000]baptized in the Holy Spirit[/color][/url][color=#000000] [/color][color=#ff0000][? - he was already baptized Catholic - why use Protestant terms][/color][color=#000000] on March 5, 1967."[/color]

[color=#000000]"A Catholic church in [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Arbor"][color=#000000]Ann Arbor[/color][/url][color=#000000], [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan"][color=#000000]Michigan[/color][/url][color=#000000] describes charismatic prayer:[/color][indent=1][color=#000000]'A charismatic style of prayer is common at Christ the King. People are free to raise their hands in prayer and during songs, [/color][color=#ff0000]many pray their own prayers audibly[/color][color=#000000], some pray in tongues, etc.... They pray with expressive or charismatic prayer at monthly parish prayer meetings, at the beginning of parish meetings, and [/color][color=#ff0000]most especially during certain moments in the Holy Mass[/color][color=#000000]. These are some of the external markers of a charismatic parish. Internal markers include a radical surrender to the Lordship of [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus"][color=#000000]Jesus[/color][/url][color=#000000] [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ"][color=#000000]Christ[/color][/url][color=#000000] in all parts of life, a strong adherence to the Gospel and the teachings of the Catholic Church, and the pursuit of strong friendships centered on Christ.'[/color][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charismatic_Renewal#cite_note-0"][color=#000000][[/color][/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charismatic_Renewal#cite_note-0"][color=#000000]1[/color][/url][color=#000000][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charismatic_Renewal#cite_note-0"]][/url][/color][/sup][color=#000000][sup]"[/sup][/color][/indent]

"Moreover, during Pentecost 1998, the Pope recognized the essential nature of the charismatic dimension:
[indent=1][color=#000000]'[/color][color=#ff0000]The institutional and charismatic aspects are co-essential[/color][color=#000000] as it were to the Church’s constitution. They contribute, although differently, to the life, renewal and sanctification of God’s People. It is from this providential rediscovery of the Church’s charismatic dimension that, before and after the Council, a remarkable pattern of growth has been established for ecclesial movements and new communities.'[/color][sup][color=#000000][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charismatic_Renewal#cite_note-13"][14][/url]"[/color][/sup]

[/indent]

Edited August 7, 2011 by 1catholic

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='1catholic' timestamp='1312752222' post='2283089']
[color=#000000]The title asks for a theology debate. Here are some questionable aspects for me. theologically, I'd like an explanation. The last quote is just me acknowledging the approval the mvmnt has received. [/color]

[color=#000000]-Wikipedia's 2cents (coloring is mine)-[/color]

[color=#000000]"Ranaghan [one of the founders of Catholic Charismatic Mvmnt] heard about a new work of [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit"][color=#000000]the Holy Spirit[/color][/url][color=#000000] in the lives of some friends at [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duquesne_University"][color=#000000]Duquesne University[/color][/url][color=#000000]. After an initial period of [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skepticism"][color=#000000]skepticism[/color][/url][color=#000000], their [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer"][color=#000000]prayer[/color][/url][color=#000000] and study led him and his new wife to be [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_in_the_Holy_Spirit"][color=#ff0000]baptized in the Holy Spirit[/color][/url][color=#000000] [/color][color=#ff0000][? - he was already baptized Catholic - why use Protestant terms][/color][color=#000000] on March 5, 1967."[/color]

[color=#000000]"A Catholic church in [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Arbor"][color=#000000]Ann Arbor[/color][/url][color=#000000], [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan"][color=#000000]Michigan[/color][/url][color=#000000] describes charismatic prayer:[/color][indent=1][color=#000000]'A charismatic style of prayer is common at Christ the King. People are free to raise their hands in prayer and during songs, [/color][color=#ff0000]many pray their own prayers audibly[/color][color=#000000], some pray in tongues, etc.... They pray with expressive or charismatic prayer at monthly parish prayer meetings, at the beginning of parish meetings, and [/color][color=#ff0000]most especially during certain moments in the Holy Mass[/color][color=#000000]. These are some of the external markers of a charismatic parish. Internal markers include a radical surrender to the Lordship of [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus"][color=#000000]Jesus[/color][/url][color=#000000] [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ"][color=#000000]Christ[/color][/url][color=#000000] in all parts of life, a strong adherence to the Gospel and the teachings of the Catholic Church, and the pursuit of strong friendships centered on Christ.'[/color][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charismatic_Renewal#cite_note-0"][color=#000000][[/color][/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charismatic_Renewal#cite_note-0"][color=#000000]1[/color][/url][color=#000000][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charismatic_Renewal#cite_note-0"]][/url][/color][/sup][color=#000000][sup]"[/sup][/color]


"Moreover, during Pentecost 1998, the Pope recognized the essential nature of the charismatic dimension:
[/indent]
[indent=1][color=#000000]'[/color][color=#ff0000]The institutional and charismatic aspects are co-essential[/color][color=#000000] as it were to the Church’s constitution. They contribute, although differently, to the life, renewal and sanctification of God’s People. It is from this providential rediscovery of the Church’s charismatic dimension that, before and after the Council, a remarkable pattern of growth has been established for ecclesial movements and new communities.'[/color][sup][color=#000000][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charismatic_Renewal#cite_note-13"][14][/url]"[/color][/sup]



[/quote]

[sup][size=3][1 Corinthians 14]- 26[/size][/sup] What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. [sup][size=3]27[/size][/sup] If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. [sup][size=3]28[/size][/sup] If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.[/indent]

[dells_of_bittersweet]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312587295' post='2282141']
I don't even like shaking hands at the sign of peace.
[/quote]

Why are people giving props to this? You're complaining about a legitimate part of the Mass and that's not okay in my book. While you're at it why don't you complain about the Eucharistic Prayer or the Gospel?

I know there won't be a sign of peace come Advent but it's not your place to be the arbiter of what the official parts of the Liturgy are.

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1312651092' post='2282429']
People who are Charismatic Catholics go too far with it. The same applies to the Pentecostals. Most of the time it is just useless Jibber Jabber. Stuff that reminds me of a Shaman and his Tribe dancing around a fire speaking non sense. I will admit that there was one instance that got me thinking about its validity. But even then the guy was speaking in tongues outloud and publicly, in which case it is not being done properly. And I'm pretty sure that scripture says that there needs to be an interpreter and it needs to be done in a certain manner.
[/quote]

Wow. Just wow. I pray that the Lord is merciful and kind with you. That was harsh and assumes that all charismatic catholics are the same.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1312576789' post='2282046']
If that's your attitude, even a theological argument won't convince you.

The fact that the Renewal continues to bear fruit even today should be sufficient, though I understand your skepticism still.

I recommend Ralph Martin's book: "The Fulfillment of Desire" to read for some good points.
[/quote]
I absolutely looooooooooove that book!!!!

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='dells_of_bittersweet' timestamp='1312767945' post='2283181']
Why are people giving props to this? You're complaining about a legitimate part of the Mass and that's not okay in my book. While you're at it why don't you complain about the Eucharistic Prayer or the Gospel?
[/quote]
Allowed? Perhaps. Legitimate? Not really.

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='dells_of_bittersweet' timestamp='1312767945' post='2283181']

I know there won't be a sign of peace come Advent but it's not your place to be the arbiter of what the official parts of the Liturgy are.
[/quote]

Erm, its not being removed - unless the priest chooses to omit it, like some do now.

[RezaMikhaeil]

To everyone, sorry that I haven't responded sooner and won't be that detailed in this email. I've been working consecutive 12.5-13hr days of manual labor and so I don't have much time but I will next weekend and then I'll get more involved here. Until that time here is a few points.

- I'd started this thread, as I'd stated previously because it has never been supported theologically. Most of you have once again proved my point. You say, "read these 50 books" without being able to make an articulate point yourself, let alone recite a point from those books that puts the nail in the coffin. That's probably why these threads continually get brought up and have not been settled.

- There is not one single verse in the entire Holy Scriptures of the Bible that support this theory of these supposed "charismatic gifts" being of the Holy Spirit. However there is a whole lot of evidence in history that says otherwise. Greek Pagans were known to engage in similar behavior. The montanists did too. Tertullian joined them and if memory serves me right, he was rejected as a saint and considered a heretic by the Church. It's modern revival came from the rebellious Protestant reformation, which is at odds with the Roman Catholic Church.

- Perhaps the Desert Fathers, who raised people from the dead wrote something about it? Ah....nope think again.

- Perhaps tradition says something? If we read the holies of the different Saints. We read that Pentecost is celebrated in the Catholic Church because it was the opposite of the Tower of Babel. The Tower of Babel was complete disorder, in which nobody understood each other, nor G-d. Pentecost was where everyone understood each other and heard the Holy Spirit/G-d. Charismatics refer to their "gifts" as "the baptism of the holy spirit". They cite scriptures in the Acts of the Apostles, describing the day of pentecost as "evidence". However what they do is the opposite of Pentecost. They all claim a different "prayer language", or "tongue", in which they claim the Holy Spirit put on their lips and in their hearts. However, none of them understood what they are saying, nor understood each other, so this is more like the Tower of Babel, then Pentecost. Pentecost was complete understanding.

Now sure, they all claim "its a language that G-d gives you. It helps your soul connect with G-d". Not only is this contrary to the Holy Scriptures but not true. Furthermore they often have people pose as "interpreters" of this mystical language, but in reality they can't interpret it because it's meaningless. They can't give a word for word translation, or even a summerization of individual sentences. They usually just say, 'this person is singing praises to G-d' or something general like this. I once did a study in which I went to approx. 50 charismatic churches. When they said, "come and recieve the baptism of the holy spirit", I went down there and began reciting the Muslim call to prayer in Arabic. Without fail, every single time these people took the bait and began saying, "Praise be G-d, he is singing praise to G-d with his new prayer language". Guess what idiots. I was saying "there is no G-d but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger". Afterward, I felt bad so I either told them the truth that day, or I wrote them a letter.

What was their respons afterwards? It went something along the lines of, "I had a bad feeling about you from the time that I met you. The Holy Spirit was telling me that you had many demons that were struggling over your soul, blah blah blah". As far as Charismatic Catholics, I have to ask the question. We're told that Baptism and Christmation have to do with the Holy Spirit. How can these individuals claim that these "gifts" are evidence of the Holy Spirit and that we're being "baptised with the holy spirit", if we've already had the spirit with us? Furthermore, why doesn't Pope Benedict, the man who is said to talk to Christ more direct then we're talking now, not pray in tongues or engage in these "gifts of the Holy Spirit"? Wouldn't he be one of the first to engage in such activities? This is why, in my opinion, these are incompatible with the Roman Catholic Church.

More importantly, there is one way in which G-d has given us to worship him. That is the liturgy. There is no other liturgy.

[RezaMikhaeil]

I should also note: Comparing the "charismatic gifts" to the Eucharist, are you serious? Those are apples and oranges. One originates with Jesus Christ and was taught by the Apostles themselves, the other orginated with non-Catholic religions and individuals that were Christian heretics. One is the body of Christ, the other claims to be the fruits of the Holy Spirit without evidence. Putting those two on the same level is like blasphemy if you ask me. That's like comparing food and mushy mud pie.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1312595264' post='2282183']
Okay here, I'll help. Here are a few:

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=1078&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1"]http://www.phatmass....ic&fromsearch=1[/url]
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=99224&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1"]http://www.phatmass....ic&fromsearch=1[/url]
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=98116&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1"]http://www.phatmass....ic&fromsearch=1[/url]
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=93927&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1"]http://www.phatmass....ic&fromsearch=1[/url]
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=90076&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1"]http://www.phatmass....ic&fromsearch=1[/url]
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=35037&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1"]http://www.phatmass....ic&fromsearch=1[/url]
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=26579&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1"]http://www.phatmass....ic&fromsearch=1[/url]
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=13692&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1"]http://www.phatmass....ic&fromsearch=1[/url]
[/quote]

Libeling charismatic brothers and sisters in Christ is not phat.

[maximillion]

Every Catholic is surely a charismatic Catholic by fact of Confirmation no? I don't understand what the fuss is about.
As for emotionality, God made me....ergo there must be some Divine plan for my emotions. If I can't include them as a natural part of worship I am denying a God given part of me.

[maximillion]

The seven gifts are enumerated in [url="http://bibref.hebtools.com/?book=%20Isaiah&verse=11:2-3&src=NASB"]Isaiah 11:2-3[/url] and conform to the Latin [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgate"]Vulgate[/url][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_gifts_of_the_Holy_Spirit#cite_note-0"][1][/url][/sup], which takes the list from the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint"]Septuagint[/url] [url="http://ecmarsh.com/lxx/Esaias/index.htm"][1][/url]. According to the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catechism_of_the_Catholic_Church"]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/url][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_gifts_of_the_Holy_Spirit#cite_note-scborromeo1831-1"][2][/url][/sup] and descriptions outlined by St. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Aquinas"]Thomas Aquinas[/url] in the [i][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summa_Theologica"]Summa Theologica[/url][/i].[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_gifts_of_the_Holy_Spirit#cite_note-TA-2"][3][/url][/sup] The seven gifts are described as follows:[list]
[*][b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisdom"]Wisdom[/url]:[/b] Also, the gift of wisdom, we see God at work in our lives and in the world. For the wise person, the wonders of nature, historical events,and other things that concerns the supreme order and the ups and downs of our lives take on deeper meaning. The matters of judgment about the truth, and being able to see the whole image of God. We see God as our Father and other people with dignity. Lastly being able to see God in everyone and everything everywhere.
[/list][list]
[*][b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Understanding"]Understanding[/url]:[/b] In understanding, we comprehend how we need to live as a follower of Christ. A person with understanding is not confused by all the conflicting messages in our culture about the right way to live. The gift of understanding perfects a person's speculative reason in the apprehension of truth. It is the gift whereby self-evident principles are known, Aquinas writes.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_gifts_of_the_Holy_Spirit#cite_note-3"][4][/url][/sup]
[/list][list]
[*][b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counsel"]Counsel[/url] (Right Judgment):[/b] With the gift of counsel/right judgment, we know the difference between right and wrong, and we choose to do what is right. A person with right judgment avoids sin and lives out the values taught by Jesus. The gift of truth that allows the person to respond prudently, and happily to believe our Christ the Lord.
[/list][list]
[*][b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortitude"]Fortitude[/url] (Courage):[/b] With the gift of fortitude/courage, we overcome our fear and are willing to take risks as a follower of Jesus Christ. A person with courage is willing to stand up for what is right in the sight of God, even if it means accepting rejection, verbal abuse, or even physical harm and death. The gift of courage allows people the firmness of mind that is required both in doing good and in enduring evil, especially with regard to goods or evils that are difficult, just like [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc"]Joan of Arc[/url] did.
[/list][list]
[*][b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge"]Knowledge[/url]:[/b] With the gift of knowledge, we understand the meaning of God. The gift of knowledge is more than an accumulation of facts.
[/list][list]
[*][b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piety"]Piety[/url] (Reverence):[/b] With the gift of reverence, sometimes called piety, we have a deep sense of respect for God and the church. A person with reverence recognizes our total reliance on God and comes before God with humility, trust, and love. Piety is the gift whereby, at the Holy Spirit's instigation, we pay worship and duty to God as our Father, Aquinas writes.
[/list][list]
[*][b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_of_the_Lord"]Fear of the Lord[/url] (Wonder and Awe):[/b] With the gift of fear of the Lord we are aware of the glory and majesty of God. A person with wonder and awe knows that God is the perfection of all we desire: perfect knowledge, perfect goodness, perfect power, and perfect love. This gift is described by Aquinas as a fear of separating oneself from God. He describes the gift as a "filial fear," like a child's fear of offending his father, rather than a "servile fear," that is, a fear of punishment. Also known as knowing God is all powerful. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom (Prov 1:7) because it puts our mindset in its correct location with respect to God: we are the finite, dependent creatures, and He is the infinite, all-powerful Creator.
[/list]

[Papist]

Shouldn't our identity be Catholic[Roman Catholic]? I never understood the need to label your Catholic identity as liberal, conservative, traditional, charismatic, etc.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='maximillion' timestamp='1312816006' post='2283322']
Every Catholic is surely a charismatic Catholic by fact of Confirmation no? I don't understand what the fuss is about.
As for emotionality, God made me....ergo there must be some Divine plan for my emotions. If I can't include them as a natural part of worship I am denying a God given part of me.
[/quote]
It seems like thats when we receive the Gifts that are for the Building up of the Church. The other Gifts seem like they come at Baptism. Not really sure though.

Edited August 8, 2011 by infinitelord1

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1312819679' post='2283339']
Shouldn't our identity be Catholic[Roman Catholic]? I never understood the need to label your Catholic identity as liberal, conservative, traditional, charismatic, etc.
[/quote]
This. The only label worth taking is "orthodox".