"charismatic Catholics" - Theology Debate

[faithcecelia]

The statement only makes sense if the reader believes that a particular way of worship is based exclusively on emotion. I, and others posting here, don't understand its use here as charismatic worship is not based on emotion alone and so the quote must refer to something else, hence the confusion.

[Azriel]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1312669474' post='2282583']

Whoever said that the Charismatic Renewal was founded on emotion?

And being human is having emotion for the record. We would not have them if they were not good.

I'm not merely responding to you Ryan, but the whole 'emotion' argument has to stop, because the same argument could be made for the opposing view point though that view point has yet to really take shape except remain a generality of merely 'skepticism of' the Charismatic Renewal.
[/quote]

Thank you for this. I, for one, am tired of the downplay of emotion vs intellect. Shouldn't we have both?

Now, back to the topic, I, for one don't label myself as Charismatic ... that said, I have participated in the Life in the Spirit classes at my former parish. Intellectually, I can tell you that the material we discussed was scriptually sound. Emotionally, I can tell you that I have never felt the Holy Spirit more strongly when this group of faithful, and yes, traditional people prayed together. Now granted, I'm biased, because this particular group of people saved my life. And I'm quite serious about that.

I get quite tired of this whole debate. But then again, I'm a bad Catholic.

[ryansouf504]

There is a reason why the Holy See is cautiously supportive of the Charismatic Renewal...However, before we being trying to understand the theological significance of the Charismatic Renewal, I think it is important for someone to define exactly what it means to be a Charismatic Catholic... A doctrinal or theological definition would be nice please?

[Sarah147]

The Charismatic movement is for beginning in the spiritual life. You've got to get past wanting all the gifts and the excitement. Eventually, you need to move into the contemplative life.

"Fire Within" by Fr. Dubay and "Interior Castle" are good books to read. Also, videos: "Prayer Quests" and "Contemplation" both by Fr. Dubay.

[Seven77]

I believe that every apostolic Christian is supposed to be charismatic. The reception of charisms, gifts, and fruits of the Holy Spirit listed in the New Testament make one charismatic. These are available to all, the Spirit gives as he wills, and we are to repeatedly to pray for the Holy Spirit whom we have already received. Every time that the Christian welcomes the Holy Spirit into his or her soul, he or she is being charismatic. The charismatic dimension of Church is organic.

Now having said that, there's something more specific that we're discussing here in this thread. The charismatic renewal focuses on charisms found in Cor. 12. These are Scriptural and occur in the timing of the Spirit. Prophecy is a common gift to all--those on the negative side of the debate posses it. Wanting to praise God and sing is a sign of a charismatic. So is praying spontaneously.

St. Ephrem is at least one charismatic father. In my reading, many fathers were charismatic.

As JL hinted, the renewal facilitates spiritual maturity if properly utilized. It did so for me. I'm very open to "traditional" practices and contemplation and i question mere emotion.

[Sarah147]

Along the lines of my spiritual director, God wants us to get where we want Him for Him, not what He gives or does.

[Slappo]

[quote]
And they don't help me hold a better opinion toward others that have a more 'tradish' spirituality and the like, because they end up not having a lot of charity toward Charismatics.
[/quote]
One is not either traddish or charismatic. They aren't polar opposites. Many that dislike the Charismatic Movement also dislike things labeled as more traditional. There are also those that both like the Charismatic Movement and label themselves as traditional catholics.

A trad spiritually is not necessarily anti charismatic, and someone with an anti charismatic viewpoint is not necessarily a traddy. I'm sure this is widely known, but I wanted it to be clarified.

[Seven77]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1312677323' post='2282640']
The Charismatic movement is for beginning in the spiritual life. You've got to get past wanting all the gifts and the excitement. Eventually, you need to move into the contemplative life.

"Fire Within" by Fr. Dubay and "Interior Castle" are good books to read. Also, videos: "Prayer Quests" and "Contemplation" both by Fr. Dubay.
[/quote]

Another good book is the Fulfilment of All Desire by Ralph Martin...

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1312678791' post='2282664']
One is not either traddish or charismatic. They aren't polar opposites. Many that dislike the Charismatic Movement also dislike things labeled as more traditional. There are also those that both like the Charismatic Movement and label themselves as traditional catholics.

A trad spiritually is not necessarily anti charismatic, and someone with an anti charismatic viewpoint is not necessarily a traddy. I'm sure this is widely known, but I wanted it to be clarified.
[/quote]


This.

For me, charismatic worship came [i]after[/i] some time of praying in the form of contemplation - a gift God gave me at an exceptionally young age.

My home parish (where I am this weekend - YAY!!!!) was very charismatic -people clapped and danced, people prayed in tongues, people sometimes saw visions and others interpreted them, at times people were healed during services.

Yet the parish was also very traditional - Benediction (in Latin) twice a week, 3hrs a week of confessions plus a good many requests. 2 weekday masses a day (6:30am and 12:15pm) so most workers who wished to could still get to Mass. A gifted preacher who spoke wonderful homilies, not watering down or nicifying the Truth. A priest not afraid to make himself unpopular if he is certain he is right. Who willingly stands up in Mass and says he has been made aware of the Blessed Sacrament not shown the respet it deserves so one or two things will be changing etc

If you include mine with its false startes, there have been 7 vocations from the parish in the last few years, with an ordination in just a few weeks time.

Charismatic worship is not simply a stepping stone to greatr things for many people, it is there calling for a long time.

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='ryansouf504' timestamp='1312677121' post='2282637']
There is a reason why the Holy See is cautiously supportive of the Charismatic Renewal...However, before we being trying to understand the theological significance of the Charismatic Renewal, I think it is important for someone to define exactly what it means to be a Charismatic Catholic... A doctrinal or theological definition would be nice please?
[/quote]

I'd be happy to give you one, but sadly I wouldn't know where to look for one, since I'm not that theologically inclined.

Though for the record, spirituality isn't merely boiled down to terms. Too many times have Catholics and Protestants for that matter have tried to 'box' exactly 'who' God could be.

Of course I'm not saying that terms are useless, but to ask for them as if they alone will solve the issue is foolish. Though, I can understand the need for the clarification of a term to make sure everyone is on the same page.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1312669162' post='2282580']

What has to be done in a certain manner? Speaking in tongues? Are you sure charismatics believe that what St. Paul describes and what often happens in charismatic meetings is thought of as being the same thing? Being pretty sure that you saw something in scripture isn't good enough. Neither is having a discussion with a priest. He is not an authority on the subject and can be wrong.

But you have completely side stepped the question, so again, how do you know that the renewal is not the work of the Holy Spirit.
[/quote]
Oh. I see. I'm not saying the Renewal is not a work of the Holy Spirit. I think there is some validity to what is going on within the Renewal. At the same time I think it becomes "of people" instead of "of the Holy Spirit". I don't believe everyone when they say they speak in tongues. I think in a lot of cases it is learned behavior.

Praying in tongues would be a different story. I think Praying in Tongues is more voluntary and controlled by the person who is doing it. Where as, Speaking in Tongues is completely involuntary, and totally controlled by the Holy Spirit.

I am not the only Catholic who is skeptical of the things that goes on in the Renewal.

Edited August 7, 2011 by infinitelord1

[BG45]

First of all, I think it needs restating what was said before. We are all called to be charismatic by the very fact that as Christians we should have received charism and gifts from the Holy Spirit. Any and every time we welcome the Holy Spirit within us, it is in effect charismatic at Seven77 said. To deny the Holy Spirit is to deny the Trinity.

As for the type of "charismatic" that's put into quotes in the thread title. I myself was very skeptical of it the first time I was invited to go to an event hosted by the Franciscans. I had been to Pentecostal churches and watched people writhe on the floor or scream hysterically. I braced myself, but told my new friends that I would be pleased to give it a shot. What I found when I went...well, let me dig up an old blog entry from September:

[quote]
So...I just had an interesting, I suppose would be the right word, experience. I was invited the other day to attend a Festival of Praise, a Charismatic Catholic event at Saint Vincent dePaul College (and Seminary) in Latrobe, Pennsylvania. If it sounds familiar, Mr. Rogers was born there.

Time and time again tonight I've been asked what I felt about it, did I enjoy myself? did I get anything out of it spiritually? Was it anything like I imagined it would be? Valid questions that are of definite interest to those who have gone before to pose to a person who has never gone to any sort of Charismatic event, at least in the Catholic Church.

I think the answer to that can be found in a number of things. The first of which is that I am not by nature a very Charismatic individual. My prayers tend to be conducted in the utmost silence, with a quiet dignity of sorts (or at least that's my perception of it). It is normally deep in silent prayer that I find I connect most to Him, especially in the presence of the Eucharist.

Thus, even in my Baptist days, and even the days I attended a predominantly Pentecostal college worship group, I was not exactly the Charismatic type. Indeed, the things I saw were often filled with emotion and little else that I could discern, but being a skeptic at heart I always tried to reserve judgment, knowing full well it could all be real and something that I did not personally feel. However people shouting at the top of their lungs in incomprehensible languages or flopping about on the floor tended not to resonate at all with me.

With that as my background in the Charismatic movement, I think it was entirely justifiable on my part to be a little bit nervous at first. Over the last couple of days, people have been trying to calm me a bit about it, which in its own way only served to make me a bit more nervous.

The second thing I think resonates with how tonight went is that of the atmosphere itself. The people around me were happy, but to an absolute tee they were probably the most respectful I've ever had the honor of worshiping Him alongside. For the most part they were also my age or younger, other than the priests.

Also in the category of atmosphere, so to speak, is how orderly everything was. Praise and worship music, testimonials and so forth, but all in their place. Then everything came to a halt as He was brought forward, the proper prayers spoken with awe and a hushed reverent tone as everyone knelt before the King of Kings.

The final thing that set the tone for me this evening was my own attitude. I went in skeptical, as I am wont to do. I left skeptical to an extent. Despite that skepticism, I was in a good mood throughout, and I welcomed the chance to actually see people on fire for God.

All that said, the experience in my humble opinion, was overall a good one for me. I was able to see that I'm not alone amongst the single and the on fire for God, nor that I was alone in my age group in being devout and devoted to Him. I was feeling pretty depressed throughout the day in regards to my singlehood and feeling isolated about it, but that passed at a point.

The point it passed during was the Adoration in silence of the most Blessed Sacrament. I knelt on the hard floor, having learned the hard way that chairs with kneelers in them are not steady in the slightest if you're larger than a church mouse, and I spilled out to Him all my worries and my fears in silence. Then I realized something, I was fulfilling a promise. When I went to Blessed Margaret of Castello's Perpetual Adoration Chapel on the way back to Pennsylvania I knelt before Him in the Eucharist and I softly promised I would go to Adoration in Pennsylvania at the first opportunity I had, because it has played such an important role in my faith and continues to do so. I didn't realize I could have gone Tuesday at another parish here in town, and I was reluctantly going to this event...and it hit me on my knees that I had swore to Him I would come as swiftly as I could. I had kept my promise to Him. "I swore to You my King and Friend, I would come to You in Adoration as swiftly as I could, and I have. I've kept my promise Lord".

I continued to kneel and I realized a few other things as I stayed before the Blessed Sacrament, things that lead me to soft tears. I've been struggling with my singlehood, now rather enforced thanks to my job, after planning for marriage and children. I've been struggling with moving on. I've been struggling to find Him again in my life as I read the Bible more than any other point in my life and find myself praying day after day.

Each day begins the same. I awake, I go to the bathroom. While in the shower I pray for some souls in Purgatory, and then I whisper, "And now Lord, I please pray for my physical, emotional, and spiritual healing, and that [name removed] and I may find the strength to forgive one another." I knelt before Him and I realized, I was not the only one who had kept my promise. I've not felt angry about the breakup or the mostly cut off contact in weeks now. Trust me, that is true emotional healing. I've been losing weight, my face has been looking better than it has in years, and a place that has stumped dermatologists on my chest has all but disappeared after being there for almost half my life. That is the sort of physical healing I have been praying for as well.

Of course that leaves the spiritual healing, doesn't it? I've blogged on my private blog this summer about my stretch of spiritual dryness and of the continuing Dark Night of the Soul I've been trapped in for many months. Punctuated as it is by rare moments of joy in Him again, usually for an hour a week during Mass I've found myself being the man I once was, once again. I realized on my knees that these past few weeks I've been more vibrant in my spiritual life than I have been in all these months, and I think I owe it at least in part to the Catholic Student Association and its kind members who have challenged me in ways I have never been challenged before.

I never would have discussed theology in a bar of all places before, let alone sip at a drink while doing so. Plus being able to discuss things intelligently with people of faith is so wonderful. I never would have gone of my own free will to a Charismatic event again, without having people I felt were trustworthy telling me it wasn't that bad. I never would have considered going to Mass with prisoners...which I should be able to do in October. I've also been challenged by at least a few of them, whether they realize it or not, to continue to pray the Rosary more than my simple Decade a day with my prayers for healing. (A Decade a Day keeps the Blessed Virgin at bay! No, not really.)

I can't stress enough what a major revelation that was for me, and I was still processing it late into the night as people kept asking me what I thought. Granted, that major revelation came about in my normal manner of prayer.

I slowly rose from my knees and settled once more back into my chair when I realized one of the girls I rode with was now on my left, the other was no longer on my right either, but rather a man in a cassock was. "Musical Catholic Chairs" was my later musing on the subject. I felt as though a great weight had been lifted from my shoulders as I sat there and stared at Him as the singing began anew.

I'll admit, I've been around people who work energy before. I've been around Pentecostals before as well, with their brand of the Charismatic movement. What I felt in that Crypt in the middle of rural Pennsylvania was neither of those things. I could hear the people praying, some not in a way I could understand; but it was not in bombastic tones and shrill shrieking of emotional outbursts, nor the profaned tongues of one being influenced by something not of God. It was hushed, reverent even. And if I'm to be totally honest with myself, there were points I could hear something at the edge of my hearing range that was soothing but I could never quite make out; skeptical as I am, I can't ignore something was going on there.

Eventually things came to an end. We all spoke, and planned, and did a little exploring. At the beginning of the night, CSA's President had told me there was a Marian shrine in the back, and I had meant to explore it then, but we were starting. So I took the time before we left to go in there. It was what I expected of a crypt; dark, lit by candles, gorgeous inlaid stone artwork on the walls. I knelt on a kneeler for a moment and said a Hail Mary, then I looked at the statue and mused, "Well your Son and I had a nice talk earlier in Adoration. Maybe we'll talk sometime soon too."

I turned down the offer of being prayed over, a thing at a time. There's always another First Friday to come. Yes, the revelatory moments of tonight happened in the form of prayer I am most comfortable with, but at the same time, I won't discount the Charismatic movement yet. I can't deny that something was moving in that Crypt, something I so rarely have felt over the years. The skeptic in me says I'm a fool, that I let the emotion of those around me influence me; but then again, as one of the women in the car said on the way back, sometimes faith is that little thing that goes beyond reason and allows for something more.[/quote]

I've probably been to a dozen or so "charismatic" events since. Each has been much the same; reverent and orderly. I've been prayed over, but never slain in the Spirit. But, for my own one proof that there may be something there, more than anything else, is my relationship with my father.

When I finally went up to ask a friar to pray over me one day, I didn't know for what I would ask. Then out of nowhere it hit me, for my relationship with dad. It's never been a good one, and it was reduced to an all time low after he "joked" with me that they hadn't gotten all of mom's cancer with the surgery. Then laughed in my face when I was about to cry like a baby.

I asked for prayer for healing in the way I saw my dad. So help me, it makes me a bad Catholic, but when I returned to my seat asking God when I'd feel different, I realized I didn't hate my dad any more, but I pitied him. I tried to summon up that hate which had become so commonplace, but it wasn't there any more. And it still isn't, almost a year later.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1312595264' post='2282183']
Okay here, I'll help. Here are a few:

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=1078&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1"]http://www.phatmass....ic&fromsearch=1[/url]
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=99224&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1"]http://www.phatmass....ic&fromsearch=1[/url]
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=98116&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1"]http://www.phatmass....ic&fromsearch=1[/url]
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=93927&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1"]http://www.phatmass....ic&fromsearch=1[/url]
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=90076&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1"]http://www.phatmass....ic&fromsearch=1[/url]
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=35037&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1"]http://www.phatmass....ic&fromsearch=1[/url]
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=26579&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1"]http://www.phatmass....ic&fromsearch=1[/url]
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=13692&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1"]http://www.phatmass....ic&fromsearch=1[/url]
[/quote]

Just to skip ahead 15 pages and jump to the conclusion of this thread which has been rehashed many times before, find the end of the story, here, here, here, here, or here.

[infinitelord1]

The Purpose of the Charasmatic Gifts are for the building up of the Church...


198. With His grace and His gifts, we may exercise our purpose to build-up the Church and the Faithful in order to bring the Gospel message to the world. In this, we exercise the Power of the Spirit, expressed in Love, and maintained through self- discipline. When we do this, we truly become Ambassadors for Christ (Excerpt from the rule of St. Michael).

Also....

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][sup][size=3][1 Corinthians 14]- 26[/size][/sup] What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. [sup][size=3]27[/size][/sup] If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. [sup][size=3]28[/size][/sup] If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.[/font]
----------------------------------------------

Speaking in Tongues became less common the Stronger the Church grew....

[size=2]In the earliest times, "the Holy Ghost fell upon them that believed: and they spake with tongues", which they had not learned, "as the Spirit gave them utterance". These were signs adapted to the time. For there behooved to be that betokening of the Holy Spirit in all tongues, to shew that the Gospel of God was to run through all tongues over the whole earth. That thing was done for a betokening, [b][size=3]and it passed away[/size][/b]. In the laying on of hands now, that persons may receive the Holy Ghost, do we look that they should speak with tongues? Or when he laid the hand on infants, did each one of you look to see whether they would speak with tongues, and, when he saw that they did not speak with tongues, was any of you so strong-minded as to say, These have not received the Holy Ghost; for, had they received, they would speak with tongues as was the case in those times? If then the witness of the presence of the Holy Ghost be not given through these miracles, by what is it given, by what does one get to know that he has received the Holy Ghost? Let him question his own heart. If he love his brother, the Spirit of God dwelleth in him. ([/size][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo"][size=2]Augustine of Hippo[/size][/url][size=2], 354-430)[/size]

[size=2]This whole phenomenon [of speaking in tongues] is very obscure, but the obscurity is produced by our ignorance of the facts referred to and by their cessation, being such then as used to occur but now no longer take place. And why do they not happen now? Why look now, the cause too of the obscurity hath produced us again another question: namely, why did they then happen, [b][size=3]and now do so no more[/size][/b]? ([/size][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysostom"][size=2]Chrysostom[/size][/url][size=2], 344-407)[/size]

[size=3]In Conclusion, The main purpose of the Charismatic Gifts was fulfilled during the times of the Earliest Apostles. They [Charisms] were to aid the growth of the Church. It seems that eventually, once the Church had been well established, the Charasmatic Gifts became extremely rare and seemingly non-existant. That is why I am skeptical about it today. I think the Catholic Charismatic Renewal serves its purpose...and it is possible that this purpose is to show Protestants that Catholics possess the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. This is my thoughts about the matter you are free to disagree.[/size]

[size=3]-Infinite[/size]

Edited August 7, 2011 by infinitelord1

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Seven77' timestamp='1312678488' post='2282657']These are Scriptural and occur in the timing of the Spirit. Prophecy is a common gift to all--those on the negative side of the debate posses it.
[/quote]
Could you expand on this a little bit, cause there's no way that you're saying what I imagine you're saying.