faithcecelia Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 (edited) [quote name='mortify' timestamp='1312592553' post='2282164'] Faithcecelia, How you judge one liturgy over another? It seems like you put a lot of stock in feelings. I too had negative feelings about some aspects of tradition, but that had nothing to do with the Spirit, it was rather do to my own conditioning. Being a modern person bombarded with all sorts of media, and one formed to hold certain views of traditional Catholic worship, it was no surprise that I felt weird. But when one considers that this was the ancient form of worship, the way our forebears worshipped as far back as when Nero rulled the Roman empire, one begins to appreciate the form of worship. You begin to realize the liturgy is not something I can play with, and in fact, personal preference goes out the window. It is rather something that is, and my role is to be thankful, and humbly accept it. This is why the idea of finding a calling to a liturgy sounds very strange to me, especially when the principles of that liturgy are based on a spirituality that originated in protestantism. I understand graces like speaking in tongues is important to Charismatics, but from a traditional view, is a silly thing to seek after, and the reason is simple. Charismatic graces have nothing to do with our salvation. You can prophecy, have visions, speak in tongues... but if you dont have sanctifying grace, you're not getting saved. Salvation is in sanctifying grace, not charismatic grace. This is an important point to remember. A spirituality that is not focused on sanctifying grace, is a failed spirituality. [/quote] Okay, that clarifies your concerns for me. I am not talking about feelings of preference, I am not talking 'I like this style, this hymn, this speaker', nor am I saying 'Oh I don't like this, I am bored, I am fed up, or I dont like this hymn'. these are externals and of absolutely no relevance to what I meant, although I can understand why you asked. I am talking about a deep, sicky, panicky feeling deep inside, hearing a voice saying this is not of God, or this is not of the Church. For example, one of the communities I looked at with possible view to entering seemed fine, nothing you could have seen and nothing that was directly said suggested any problems. Yet I felt sick and wanted to run the whole time. Only in the days following did I discover they are not with Rome. I will add, I think using a different style of music is very different from changing the liturgy - we fortunately are given a level of freedom withing the structure of the NO Mass, and this has increased already with the Ordinariate, and will increase further once their own liturgt is finalised. these externals are aids to worship (whether they take charismatic forms or kneeling throughout) but do not add nor take away anything of the centre, the meaning and the reason for the Mass. Edited August 6, 2011 by faithcecelia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 Okay here, I'll help. Here are a few: http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=1078&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1 http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=99224&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1 http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=98116&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1 http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=93927&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1 http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=90076&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1 http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=35037&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1 http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=26579&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1 http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=13692&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 People who are Charismatic Catholics go too far with it. The same applies to the Pentecostals. Most of the time it is just useless Jibber Jabber. Stuff that reminds me of a Shaman and his Tribe dancing around a fire speaking non sense. I will admit that there was one instance that got me thinking about its validity. But even then the guy was speaking in tongues outloud and publicly, in which case it is not being done properly. And I'm pretty sure that scripture says that there needs to be an interpreter and it needs to be done in a certain manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1312651092' post='2282429'] People who are Charismatic Catholics go too far with it. The same applies to the Pentecostals. Most of the time it is just useless Jibber Jabber. Stuff that reminds me of a Shaman and his Tribe dancing around a fire speaking non sense. I will admit that there was one instance that got me thinking about its validity. But even then the guy was speaking in tongues outloud and publicly, in which case it is not being done properly. And I'm pretty sure that scripture says that there needs to be an interpreter and it needs to be done in a certain manner. [/quote] How do you know it is not the Holy Spirit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 He just knows. Trust him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePenciledOne Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1312656964' post='2282504'] He just knows. Trust him. [/quote] Um.... I'm with Brother Adam on this. As you all can see I label myself plainly as a Charismatic Catholic and judge or call out or display your opinions however you like, but it is a legitimate form of spirituality. I won't go into detail how it has shaped and saved my faith life and how it continues to do so, but these sort of debates become tiring. And they don't help me hold a better opinion toward others that have a more 'tradish' spirituality and the like, because they end up not having a lot of charity toward Charismatics. Like Brother Adam said, you don't have to be open to the Holy Spirit in order to be Catholic or be spritiaual etc. But for those of us that do wish for the Holy Spirit to take part in our lives let it be. Edited August 6, 2011 by ThePenciledOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 I wasn't being snarky with this. I did want to know... [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1312582091' post='2282100'] Good topic. Perhaps we should start with a definition of what a "charismatic" Catholic is. Is it just a Catholic who likes P&W masses or is it something more than that? [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1312653271' post='2282466'] How do you know it is not the Holy Spirit? [/quote] Because it has to be done in a certain manner. Me and my priest had this conversation before this is what he said. Plus Im pretty sure I read it in scripture. Edited August 6, 2011 by infinitelord1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 [quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1312656964' post='2282504'] He just knows. Trust him. [/quote] Funny. If I am wrong then will you please point it out. Thanks. I am open to criticism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryansouf504 Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 St Bonaventure once said, "emotion is not devotion". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1312665289' post='2282566'] Because it has to be done in a certain manner. Me and my priest had this conversation before this is what he said. Plus Im pretty sure I read it in scripture. [/quote] What has to be done in a certain manner? Speaking in tongues? Are you sure charismatics believe that what St. Paul describes and what often happens in charismatic meetings is thought of as being the same thing? Being pretty sure that you saw something in scripture isn't good enough. Neither is having a discussion with a priest. He is not an authority on the subject and can be wrong. But you have completely side stepped the question, so again, how do you know that the renewal is not the work of the Holy Spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePenciledOne Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 [quote name='ryansouf504' timestamp='1312668467' post='2282578'] St Bonaventure once said, "emotion is not devotion". [/quote] Whoever said that the Charismatic Renewal was founded on emotion? And being human is having emotion for the record. We would not have them if they were not good. I'm not merely responding to you Ryan, but the whole 'emotion' argument has to stop, because the same argument could be made for the opposing view point though that view point has yet to really take shape except remain a generality of merely 'skepticism of' the Charismatic Renewal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 [quote name='ryansouf504' timestamp='1312668467' post='2282578'] St Bonaventure once said, "emotion is not devotion". [/quote] I'm confused, what does this have to do with the topic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
add Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 [quote name='ryansouf504' timestamp='1312668467' post='2282578'] St Bonaventure once said, "emotion is not devotion". [/quote] spot on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
add Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 [quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1312669702' post='2282585'] I'm confused, what does this have to do with the topic? [/quote] I'm befuddled, by your bewilderment The statement you are questioning makes perfect sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now