"charismatic Catholics" - Theology Debate

[ardillacid]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1313404176' post='2288262']
If I'd wanted your "experience", I'd have asked for that, but I didn't. From the get go... Why am I unconcerned with people's individual experiences? [/quote]lol that's funny because in your last two posts you draw directly from your own personal experience of charismatics. So you should probably clarify and say that you aren't so much Interested in other peoples' personal experiences as you are with sharing your own.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='ardillacid' timestamp='1313509763' post='2289103']
lol that's funny because in your last two posts you draw directly from your own personal experience of charismatics. So you should probably clarify and say that you aren't so much Interested in other peoples' personal experiences as you are with sharing your own.
[/quote]

First it would help if you didn't take what I said out of context. Please give the full context then respond. Second, you're incorrect to say that my last response drew from my own personal experiences.

The first paragraph was about my obligation as a Christian to question and test if this whole "charismatic" movement is from the Holy Spirit and what evidence there is of that. I'd cited I John chapter 4, verse 1. This is a theological argument, not an experience. The second paragraph was about people here not citing theological opinions but rather their experience. Again this is a point that I was making about the nature of this thread, not "an experience".

The following two paragraphs were about post 131, where I'd made specific theological points. It's the most in which I'd gotten the most in depth and people not responding with theological arguments. Then I'd cited St. Paul's writings as evidence that personal experiences are misleading and followed that with a paragraph about the dangers of basing one's faith upon personal experiences rather then theological evidence.

Please don't waste my time by attempting to manipulate my posts. Thanks

[ardillacid]

My post directly followed yours. I don't think anyone here is too lazy to scroll up a fraction of a page. Besides, your opening paragraph in #131 comes off as an authoritative statement about these charismatic catholics based off of your personal experience which just happens to be the only one.that counts. I've been to dozens of charismatic events, masses, retreats and whatnot and never experienced anything remotely close to what you describe. If you don't want other peoples personal anecdotes, maybe you should follow your own advice

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='ardillacid' timestamp='1313618904' post='2290108']
My post directly followed yours. I don't think anyone here is too lazy to scroll up a fraction of a page. Besides, your opening paragraph in #131 comes off as an authoritative statement about these charismatic catholics based off of your personal experience which just happens to be the only one.that counts. I've been to dozens of charismatic events, masses, retreats and whatnot and never experienced anything remotely close to what you describe. If you don't want other peoples personal anecdotes, maybe you should follow your own advice
[/quote]

You're right your post did follow mine but you'd cited a particular quote from it out of context. Many people would just assume the context that you'd given it rather then read what I'd wrote in it's entirety. As for my opening paragraph of #131:

[quote]For those that are familiar with charismatics and have been to their conferences [such as myself]. You might have remembered that often the theme at these events is that "the Holy Spirit is dwelling amongst Christians of all denominations", as if it doesn't matter if you're Protestant or Catholic, completely undermining the importance of being Catholic. When manchild [from marsill] became Roman Catholic, many Protestants were angry but I also heard Charismatics say, "some Catholics have the Holy Spirit too", which to me was also suggesting that those Catholics that aren't charismatic, don't have the Holy Spirit in their lives.
[/quote]

It is a theological perspective with a hint of personal experience for the sake of letting the readers know that I'm not just assuming these things but that I witnessed them for myself. If I didn't say that I had witnessed them for myself people would say, "you should go to a Charismatic conference first, then maybe you'd have a different perspective" as some here have already said.

Once again you're manipulating what I've written because you have no theological backing for your claims whatsoever. Not only did I cite from mainstream charismatic sources but also mainstream Roman Catholic charismatic sources, who also happened to be a deacon. Your attacks of me are typical of someone who has no theological argument so you attack the messenger with anything that you can try and get your hands on. Stick to the theological topic rather then attack the messenger and maybe you'll get further.

[mortify]

We have to remember that the Charismatic gifts do not bring us closer to God, nor dot hey reflect a high level of sanctity. You can prophecy, speak in tongues, and heal in Jesus' name, and still be far from God and on your way to hell (Matthew 7). It's for this reason that Saints and Theologians have discouraged seeking such gifts. The only gift we should be seeking is that of sanctifying grace. This is the grace that is necessary for union with God and our salvation.

Edited August 19, 2011 by mortify

[jennyanne]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1313726934' post='2291142']
The only gift we should be seeking is that of sanctifying grace. This is the grace that is necessary for union with God and our salvation.
[/quote]


Except that is not what the Holy Spirit says to us in His Inspired Word as written by the Great Apostle Paul: (1 Cor 12)


"Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
[b]But earnestly desire the higher gifts[/b]. And I will show you a still more excellent way..."

He said this right before going into his awe-some passage about Love...

Edited September 4, 2011 by jennyanne

[mortify]

Peace of the Lord be with you Jennyanne,

When St Paul says to seek the higher gifts, he is saying to seek the theological virtues of love, faith, and charity. And that of those three, love is the greatest. Notice that St Paul speaks rather disparagingly of the charismatic gifts:

[i][b]"If I speak in the tongues[sup][[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians+13&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28667a"]a[/url]][/sup] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal."[/b][/i]
[i]1 Cor 13:3[/i]

This is why seeking the lesser gifts can be very dangerous. They are not necessary for our salvation, we can do perfectly without them. And yet, one can be so dazzled by them, that they will seek them over what is truly important for our salvation, e.g. the theological virtues, gifts of the Holy Spirit (wisdom, peace, fear of God, etc. not speaking in tongues, prophecy, etc)

[jennyanne]

Peace of Christ to you also, Mortify. I am super short on time, but want to point you to the entire Chapter 14 of 1 Corinthians. St. Paul says, "So, my brethren, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues; yet all things should be done decently and in order." He also says: "Make love your aim, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy." Thus he is saying that Charity is the highest goal, but he is also saying to earnestly desire other spiritual gifts as well, (especially prophecy.) Charity is not opposed to the other gifts just because it is the highest.

We do not need to seek only those things that are strictly needed for salvation, The generosity of God goes beyond that. Jesus said, "It is not by measure that He gives the Holy Spirit." I think it is dangerous to NOT seek all the God wants to give us! He wants to give us gifts to build us up, to be sure, but also for the good for the entire Body of Christ and for the purpose of evangelization. It is just not Scriptural to say that the charismatic gifts should not be desired.

Thank you for the kind and respectful tone of your answer above. Obviously this is a personal matter for me and for a lot of other Catholics. It is okay that sometimes things are misunderstood but I really have a problem with out right attacks.

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='jennyanne' timestamp='1315435397' post='2301806']
Peace of Christ to you also, Mortify. I am super short on time, but want to point you to the entire Chapter 14 of 1 Corinthians. St. Paul says, "So, my brethren, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues; yet all things should be done decently and in order." He also says: "Make love your aim, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy." Thus he is saying that Charity is the highest goal, but he is also saying to earnestly desire other spiritual gifts as well, (especially prophecy.) Charity is not opposed to the other gifts just because it is the highest.

We do not need to seek only those things that are strictly needed for salvation, The generosity of God goes beyond that. Jesus said, "It is not by measure that He gives the Holy Spirit." I think it is dangerous to NOT seek all the God wants to give us! He wants to give us gifts to build us up, to be sure, but also for the good for the entire Body of Christ and for the purpose of evangelization. It is just not Scriptural to say that the charismatic gifts should not be desired.

Thank you for the kind and respectful tone of your answer above. Obviously this is a personal matter for me and for a lot of other Catholics. It is okay that sometimes things are misunderstood but I really have a problem with out right attacks.
[/quote]

This needs props! Sadly Ive run out today...

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Seven77' timestamp='1312678488' post='2282657']
I believe that every apostolic Christian is supposed to be charismatic. The reception of charisms, gifts, and fruits of the Holy Spirit listed in the New Testament make one charismatic. These are available to all, the Spirit gives as he wills, and we are to repeatedly to pray for the Holy Spirit whom we have already received. Every time that the Christian welcomes the Holy Spirit into his or her soul, he or she is being charismatic. The charismatic dimension of Church is organic.

Now having said that, there's something more specific that we're discussing here in this thread. The charismatic renewal focuses on charisms found in Cor. 12. These are Scriptural and occur in the timing of the Spirit. Prophecy is a common gift to all--those on the negative side of the debate posses it. Wanting to praise God and sing is a sign of a charismatic. So is praying spontaneously.

St. Ephrem is at least one charismatic father. In my reading, many fathers were charismatic.

As JL hinted, the renewal facilitates spiritual maturity if properly utilized. It did so for me. I'm very open to "traditional" practices and contemplation and i question mere emotion.
[/quote]

i wanted to re post this because i think this point is being missed...

[vee]

The only gift I seek is Him, Jesus, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist. Anything else, meh who cares!

[vee]

Also, while it is extremely common to speak of seeking things like speaking in tongues etc where is the raving about the greatest gift of all the Eucharist? And equally great the gift of the cross? The gift of suffering? That zeal of Lord let me suffer as you did!!!!

[img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-uouropv53w0/TakQwoS0zsI/AAAAAAAATVw/V-Mkp63NG34/s1600/ScourgedChrist.jpg[/img]

[jennyanne]

Yes! The Eucharist is the Source and Summit of our faith! But a summit is on top of a mountain. And the mountain of our faith includes things like the rosary, contemplative prayer, the other Sacraments, the corporal and spiritual works of mercy, and the charismatic gifts to name a few. Also: Our Blessed Mother, the saints, the beauty of the liturgy, the Scriptures, etc. We do not have to choose between these good things and the Eucharist! These all have their Source in the Eucharist (Jesus!) and all lead us to the Eucharist (Jesus!) We literally can have "have it all" in the Church! After all "all was created for Him and all was created through Him!" (Can't take credit for this: Source: Fr. Dominic Foster, TOR.)

Yay for the richness of our faith springing from the Cross, which is the outpouring of the depths of the love of God for us! Praise the Lord!

[mortify]

Peace Jennyanne,

[quote name='jennyanne' timestamp='1315435397' post='2301806']
I am super short on time, but want to point you to the entire Chapter 14 of 1 Corinthians. St. Paul says, "So, my brethren, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues; yet all things should be done decently and in order." He also says: "Make love your aim, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy." Thus he is saying that Charity is the highest goal, but he is also saying to earnestly desire other spiritual gifts as well, (especially prophecy.) Charity is not opposed to the other gifts just because it is the highest.[/quote]

The theological virtues are not opposed to the charismatic gifts, but the theological virtues are absolutely necessary, where as the charismatic gifts are not. Numerous charismatic gifts were given to the primitive church, which include many less known and valued gifts such as the office of teaching, gift of governing, wisdom in words, etc. The charismatic gifts served two purposes, to promote the inner development of the Church, and to promote her outer growth. The best example is seen in Pentecost, where the miracle of tongues is given so that the Apostles can teach the truth in many tongues, and by understood by foreigners all over the known world. It's is in this context that we have to understand St Paul's words about seeking gifts. The issue at Corinth was that the community had fallen into factionalism, and that many abuses had entered their worship. People would get drunk during services, the poor would be neglected, charity would be thrown out the window, and there was an obsession with the gift of tongues. St Paul criticized the fact this obsession would harm the spread of the Church, since an unbeliever walking in on a congregation praying in tongues, might think the Christians to be mad (1 Cor 14:23.) His goal is to order them back to intelligble worship, focusing on what is truly valuable: faith, hope, and charity, and of those charity being the most valuable. St Paul lists the charismatic gifts in 1 Cor 28, and mentions the gift of tongues last. He instead urges:

[b]"Eagerly desire the [u]greater[/u] gifts." [/b]
(1 Cor 12:31)


I am a Christian living in the modern world. I sin, I struggle, I do what I can to hopefully make it to heaven. I have to ask myself, is seeking the gift of tongues, as interpreted and practiced by Pentecostals and Charismatics worth my time? Is it something that is beneficial to the Church? Or is it more harmful? In my honest opinion, the way the "gift" is practiced among the Charismatics is harmful, and in fact makes us Christians out to be madmen. Furthermore, I question the way the Charismatics practice the gift, since I have never seen it practiced as outlined by St Paul.

[quote]We do not need to seek only those things that are strictly needed for salvation, The generosity of God goes beyond that. Jesus said, "It is not by measure that He gives the Holy Spirit." I think it is dangerous to NOT seek all the God wants to give us! [/quote]

The Saints always speak of what great burden extraordinary gifts are. They are often sources of temptation, and Saints are never shown seeking them. On the contrary, they seek God Himself, and is God who gratuitously offers gifts to these holy souls so that He may be glorified and the Church may be strengthened. These same Saints warn of seek extraordinary gifts since they can divert us from the true object of our desires, God. We must always remember that charimastic gifts add nothing to our sanctification. One can be endowed with numerous charismatic gifts, gifts of healing, tongues, and prophecy, and yet such a person can still end up in hell. I urge you contemplate the sorry fate of those mentioned in Matthew 7:21 et al, who had charismatic gifts but did not follow the Will of God. Point is, the charismatic gifts wont save you.

On the day of Judgement God will not look at a soul and ask whether it could speak in tongues. Nor will God grant a higher place in heaven because a soul was gifted with tongues. God will look at the state of our souls, reflected in what we in the Latin Rite call sanctifying grace. Remember the parable of the wedding feast, what happened to the one not clothed for the wedding? The same will be with those without sanctifying grace.

Furthermore, sanctifying grace can be increased by good works acted through grace. This will in fact determine the soul's unity and closeness to God in heaven. And once again, charismatic gifts have no affect on sanctifying grace. So you tell me which is more worth my time pursuing.
[quote]

It is just not Scriptural to say that the charismatic gifts should not be desired.[/quote]

I would hesitate contradicting the Church's wisdom, as it is manifested by doctors, faithful theologians, and Saints. We can't say something is against scripture by looking at one verse, we have to look at scripture in it's totality. And even then, we must look at scripture through the way the Holy Spirit has interpreted it through the body of believers, the Church. it has to be noted that when speaking of the gift of the tongues, the Fathers spoke of it in the sense of what occurred in Pentacost, i.e. a gift of speaking in a foreign language. There does appear to be yet another, and lesser form of the gift as revealed in St Paul's writings, and this is generally what the gift of tongues is referred to in our day. It's has to noted however that such a gift can be detrimental to the growth of the Church, and even a dangerous destraction, as the church in Corinth sadly fell into. For this reason St Paul set some clear rules:

[b]"If anyone speaks in a tongue, [color=#FF0000]two[/color]—or at the most three—should speak, [color=#FF0000]one at a time[/color], and someone [color=#FF0000]must interpret[/color]. [sup]28[/sup] If there is no interpreter, the speaker should [color=#FF0000]keep quiet[/color] in the church and speak to himself and to God.[/b]
1 Cor 14: 27-28

In my personal experience, Charismatics do not practice the "gift" of tongues as it is outlined in scripture.

That being said, we must recall as mentioned earlier, that this gift along with others (many more valuable) were given in abundance to the early Church for her spread and development. St Paul was giving a proper order to these gifts that were available in the primitive Church. This does not at all detract from the serious spiritual danger that is mentioned by many Saints. These gifts, along with any favor of God, can become a serious distraction. We must take head to value what is truly important, and if God graces us with a gift, we ought to use it wisely and pray we do not fall in error, as those who will approach our Lord on the Last Day and He will say He does not know them.

[quote]Thank you for the kind and respectful tone of your answer above. Obviously this is a personal matter for me and for a lot of other Catholics. It is okay that sometimes things are misunderstood but I really have a problem with out right attacks.
[/quote]

I am a sinner and my goal is only to check out clean of this world. Christianity is our only safety, and there are many versions that depart from the true faith established by our Lord. Of the truth, I follow what manifests in the Latin Rite. The attacks against this venerable Rite, gives me greater concern.


In Christ,
Mort

[Amppax]

[quote name='jennyanne' timestamp='1315445867' post='2301904']
Yes! The Eucharist is the Source and Summit of our faith! But a summit is on top of a mountain. And the mountain of our faith includes things like the rosary, contemplative prayer, the other Sacraments, the corporal and spiritual works of mercy, and the charismatic gifts to name a few. Also: Our Blessed Mother, the saints, the beauty of the liturgy, the Scriptures, etc. We do not have to choose between these good things and the Eucharist! These all have their Source in the Eucharist (Jesus!) and all lead us to the Eucharist (Jesus!) We literally can have "have it all" in the Church! After all "all was created for Him and all was created through Him!" (Can't take credit for this: Source: Fr. Dominic Foster, TOR.)

Yay for the richness of our faith springing from the Cross, which is the outpouring of the depths of the love of God for us! Praise the Lord!
[/quote]

Do you go to Franciscan? I was at the FOP (last week or 2 weeks ago?) where Fr. Dominic made that point (or was it even at the FOP? I don't remember).

Oh, and I suppose that I should comment on the actual topic of discussion. It seems to me that many seem to think that being involved with the charismatic movement distracts one from focusing on the important things. I do think this is a danger, but to say that is everyone in the charismatic movement is probably untrue. Is it possible that someone could become sidetracked because of seeking charismatic gifts? Undoubtedly, but many other things can distract as well. And while I know that Reza doesn't want us to consider any personal opinion, it seems to me that a large number of charismatic Catholics (and because i'm at a pretty charismatic school, I feel that I'm justified in saying this) are more focused on the important things then they are on the charismatic gifts.

Edited September 11, 2011 by Amppax