"charismatic Catholics" - Theology Debate

[RezaMikhaeil]

I'm sure that there is atleast one "Charismatic Catholic", or Protestant for that matter here so I want them to theologically prove to me, it's validity. Note: Citing the former [His Holiness] Pope John Paul II's favorable opinion is fine but that doesn't prove it to me, or most people. What evidence I'm looking for is that of first and foremost Biblical evidence but also that of the Early Church Fathers, etc. You can cite Roman Catholic Saints if you like but that in and of itself, I don't think would quite go far enough.

I realize that this has been discussed in the past but honestly, I have never heard a single good argument on a theological level. I've only heard those of emotionalism, filled with supposed personal opinions and experiences.

[ThePenciledOne]

If that's your attitude, even a theological argument won't convince you.

The fact that the Renewal continues to bear fruit even today should be sufficient, though I understand your skepticism still.

I recommend Ralph Martin's book: "The Fulfillment of Desire" to read for some good points.

[Amppax]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1312572559' post='2282027']
I'm sure that there is atleast one "Charismatic Catholic", or Protestant for that matter here so I want them to theologically prove to me, it's validity. Note: Citing the former [His Holiness] Pope John Paul II's favorable opinion is fine but that doesn't prove it to me, or most people. What evidence I'm looking for is that of first and foremost Biblical evidence but also that of the Early Church Fathers, etc. You can cite Roman Catholic Saints if you like but that in and of itself, I don't think would quite go far enough.

I realize that this has been discussed in the past but honestly, I have never heard a single good argument on a theological level. I've only heard those of emotionalism, filled with supposed personal opinions and experiences.
[/quote]

I'm not really all that knowledgeable about this, but I would like to know what your problems with it are. Because I don't see any obvious reasons why you have to say that people who are Catholic aren't. Usually the burden of proof rests on the one making the accusations, not the other way around.

[MissyP89]

Starting a debate by putting a person's identity in quotes really isn't conducive to open dialogue.

Just sayin'.

Edited August 5, 2011 by MissyP89

[Vincent Vega]

Good topic. Perhaps we should start with a definition of what a "charismatic" Catholic is.
Is it just a Catholic who likes P&W masses or is it something more than that?

Edited August 5, 2011 by USAirwaysIHS

[faithcecelia]

The proof I have for the way God leads me to pray and to worship Him is the way He speaks to and guides me. This has been supported and, effectively, confirmed by a number of priests from whom I have sought guidance and also a very conservative novice mistress who, in spite of her own lack of experience and even fear of such things believed that it was genuine enough that she sought further advice from an archbishop friend. I will not get into a battle of scripture quotes, not because I cannot find any but becuase I know if you look hard enough you can find quotes to support many viewpoints.

[Winchester]

I'm happy they all have place to go here because when people start holding their hands up and hopping around and stuff like that, it weirds me out.

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312586770' post='2282138']
I'm happy they all have place to go here because when people start holding their hands up and hopping around and stuff like that, it weirds me out.
[/quote]

Personally I think one of the 'proofs' of genuine, God-led charismatic worship is that it does not upset people. I have been in a number of situations - charismatic and traditional - where I have felt extremely uncomfortable, with an urge to flee (not just the discomfort you feel in an alien situation, far more than that) and in a number of those situations I have later found out more that has reinforced those feelings. I have actually had similar feelings on some website of religious communities, and later found out those communities are not in communion with Rome and believe it is part of God's way of tellin me to avoid them.

[Winchester]

I don't even like shaking hands at the sign of peace.

[mortify]

What exactly makes a charimatic Catholic, charismatic? Is it focusing on charismatic graces? How do our bros and sis who follow the movement describe themselves?

[mortify]

[quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1312587175' post='2282140']

Personally I think one of the 'proofs' of genuine, God-led charismatic worship is that it does not upset people. I have been in a number of situations - charismatic and traditional - where I have felt extremely uncomfortable, with an urge to flee (not just the discomfort you feel in an alien situation, far more than that) and in a number of those situations I have later found out more that has reinforced those feelings. I have actually had similar feelings on some website of religious communities, and later found out those communities are not in communion with Rome and believe it is part of God's way of tellin me to avoid them.
[/quote]

Faithcecilia,

It sounds like you are making judgements based on feelings. We should not discount our feelings, but at the same time we should see why we have them. Not all feelings are genuine inspirations of the spirit. And it's not like the Spirit is limited to affecting our feelings. In fact, a person can be filled with the spirit while silently kneeling at their pew.

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1312588792' post='2282146']

Faithcecilia,

It sounds like you are making judgements based on feelings. We should not discount our feelings, but at the same time we should see why we have them. Not all feelings are genuine inspirations of the spirit. And it's not like the Spirit is limited to affecting our feelings. In fact, a person can be filled with the spirit while silently kneeling at their pew.
[/quote]


Could you please tell me which parts of my post you believe imply that? I ask because anyone who has read my posts here will realise that I actually have a huge amount of respect and acceptance of pretty much all forms of Catholic (and indeed non-Catholic) worship. I am someone who loves charismatic worship but currently worships at an extremely traditional parish (where I have not been happy but that is chnging thanks to a few things, but is possibly even more traditional now) and having had to leave Carmel 2yrs ago for reasons not related to my charismatic background, am now God willing soon to respond. Indeed, it was while in a charismatic service, while praying in the tongues I had prayed for for so long, that I heard God call me to give Him my silence - not that spoken prayers in any language - earthly or spiritual - are wrong, of course they are not, but that what He asked of [i]me[/i] was the contemplation he had gifted me with.

If it where I said that I have felt seriously disturbed in both charismatic and traditional environments, yes that is true. In that situation I had, at the moment of being there feeling like that, only my feelings to base important decisions on - my prayers to God for whether I should stay or leave? If I stay should I receive communion? Is it something I ride out then talk over with those in charge, or do I ride out and never return?? Many of our decisions in many situations are based on how we feel about the situations, and I believe these 'wobbles, uncertainties and in my case nauseau and rapid heart rate as my boby is preparing to flee are pretty good signs that I should not be in a given service. Yet I could look to attend another almost identical event and not have those feelings. Who knows, maybe in many moons time spiritual directors may tell me that they believe I have the gift of percieving evil spirits or whatever the words are in scripture, or maybe it will be just a gft to help me myself from those who would try to lead me away from God and the True Church. Once I have mad the necessary immediatejudgement which [i]has[/i] to be based on what I am feeling at that time(I hae never been in a position when the Blessed Sacrament was being mistreated or there was women 'priests' etc) and acted accordingly, I have then sought out a priest I know and trust to talk through, and then get his opinion and advice. I have usually been told I probably made the decision the priest would have, in one case they felt I had maybe been too cautious.


I would also never, never, ever suggest that it was wrong to kneel and pray quiesly or that suggested the person was not filled with the spirit. True charismatics [i]DO [/i]tend to spend hours of tome doing that themselves as well! The charismatic NEW DAWN conferences I used to go to ( taking place this week in Walsinghan, England) had 23hrs adoration, with the majority of it in silence. Its liturgies were lively and passionate - but passionate about the Truth of the Gospel of the Mass that day.

No, I would never try to say that charismatic worship was definately right for everyone, and more than I would suggest that extremely traditional Old Rite worship was definately right for everyone. In face, I suspect the vast majority of Catholics would gladly avoid either!!! But there are those of us who are equally called to the charismatic movement as we are to fairly standard parish masses and as we are to Old Rite Masses.

[Brother Adam]

Kill this thread. Kill it with fire.

[img]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-EGnR5H_H0s4/TVwIJ7lsiiI/AAAAAAAAAEE/Kx8mSOwdKaQ/s1600/kill-it-with-fire-demotivational-poster-1235695993.jpg[/img]

There have to be 100 threads on the charismatic movement all of them cover the theological reasons behind the renewal. And there are an untold number of books. I really, really suggest picking up a book, especially one by Dr. Alan Shrek. The bottom line is you don't have to open your life to the gifts of the Holy Spirit but the whole sale rejection of the renewal makes you "more Catholic than the Church".

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1312592128' post='2282160'] I really, really suggest picking up a book, especially one by Dr. Alan Shrek.
[/quote]
Baxter, you know I can't read. Also

[img]http://www.pinoyhalo.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/shrek-virus.jpg[/img]
[size=8][b][u]DONKEY!![/u][/b][/size]

[mortify]

[quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1312591135' post='2282149']
No, I would never try to say that charismatic worship was definately right for everyone, and more than I would suggest that extremely traditional Old Rite worship was definately right for everyone. In face, I suspect the vast majority of Catholics would gladly avoid either!!! But there are those of us who are equally called to the charismatic movement as we are to fairly standard parish masses and as we are to Old Rite Masses.
[/quote]

Faithcecelia,

How you judge one liturgy over another? It seems like you put a lot of stock in feelings. I too had negative feelings about some aspects of tradition, but that had nothing to do with the Spirit, it was rather do to my own conditioning. Being a modern person bombarded with all sorts of media, and one formed to hold certain views of traditional Catholic worship, it was no surprise that I felt weird. But when one considers that this was the ancient form of worship, the way our forebears worshipped as far back as when Nero rulled the Roman empire, one begins to appreciate the form of worship. You begin to realize the liturgy is not something I can play with, and in fact, personal preference goes out the window. It is rather something that is, and my role is to be thankful, and humbly accept it. This is why the idea of finding a calling to a liturgy sounds very strange to me, especially when the principles of that liturgy are based on a spirituality that originated in protestantism. I understand graces like speaking in tongues is important to Charismatics, but from a traditional view, is a silly thing to seek after, and the reason is simple. Charismatic graces have nothing to do with our salvation. You can prophecy, have visions, speak in tongues... but if you dont have sanctifying grace, you're not getting saved. Salvation is in sanctifying grace, not charismatic grace. This is an important point to remember. A spirituality that is not focused on sanctifying grace, is a failed spirituality.