cmotherofpirl Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1313564808' post='2289781'] I do get the point, I do understand. Although it is a choice to delegate all future decisions with regards to morals, also with regards to forgiving one's self. As an Atheist I must take a personal responsibility with regards to understanding and making my own stance on what is right and wrong for me. With this regard I must be open to discussion, open to listening and trying to understand other people's viewpoints, open to accepting that I might be wrong. I also must take personal responsibility with regards to forgiving myself. If I have realised that my past behaviour was inappropriate e.g. bullying people at school, hunting and killing animals for fun etc... then only I can forgive myself. I cannot look to a priest or higher authority for absolution. I must forgive myself. When I look to acheive something, something that is extremely difficult I cannot do it for god, as if I have something external that I want to impress or dedicate my efforts to. It is all too easy for a person to let themselves down and for a theist they have their belief in a higher authority or imagined loved friend that they do not want to let down. Without this support, without this delegation, it is a difficult burdon to be responsible for yourself, but for me this is the only path, it is a satisfying path and I thrive on the responsibilities. [/quote] As a christian I have a personal responsibility to understand the teachings of the Church I have chosen, the reasoning behind the teachings and how they all logically hang together. Even if I don't understand it all, I accept them because I figure they have a 2000 year track record of study and I trust them to get it right. No other organization can say that. I don't see morality as majority opinion or generally negotiable - we are all born with a sense of right and wrong: whats fair and not. I have no problem listening to other viewpoints, but I measure them by the Church, not popular culture or the society I reside. If I have sinned or even harder if I have not loved, I need God's forgiveness which I can freely ask for and get, but also my own. Forgiving yourself is always harder. When I look to achieve something difficult I have 2000 years of catholic history of people who strove to do the near impossible, and usually did it, so I know difficult things can be done. I also pray like it all depends on me, and relax because ultimately it depends on God. I will give it my all,, but understand that some circumstances are beyond our control. This is helpful when things can and do go wrong, that I don't attempt to shoulder the blame for everything and feel devastated. I have seen people inflict terrible hurt on themselves and their families trying to be responsible for everything. Eventually you feel you are just not good enough and drugs alcohol and/or suicide can result. Ultimately we are all responsible for our behavior in one way or another, we just think our consequences - choices, responses, punishments and reward last beyond the grave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrestia Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1313564808' post='2289781'] but for me this is the only path [/quote] What do you mean by this? Earlier you said that atheism was your default pathway. This statement implies a conscious choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 [quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1313607272' post='2289988'] What do you mean by this? Earlier you said that atheism was your default pathway. This statement implies a conscious choice. [/quote] Yes, I was born an atheist. No knowledge or understanding of god. This is the path that my life's journey began on. Along this path I have heard a few theories about various gods, I have asked for evidence to substantiate these theories, I have listened or read what people have stated as evidence, I have decided that these presented evidences do not constitute as valid evidence [i]IMHO[/i]. I continue along my path. Basically, I have not seen any new paths open up, I have seen signposts and people telling me about these paths, but I cannot see these paths that these people talk about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1313653254' post='2290484'] Yes, I was born an atheist. No knowledge or understanding of god.[/quote] You guys familiar with the Oxford Scientist who made headlines essentially saying we're born believers? [url="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/3512686/Children-are-born-believers-in-God-academic-claims.html"]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/3512686/Children-are-born-believers-in-God-academic-claims.html[/url]. [quote] Along this path I have heard a few theories about various gods, I have asked for evidence to substantiate these theories, I have listened or read what people have stated as evidence, I have decided that these presented evidences do not constitute as valid evidence [i]IMHO[/i]. I continue along my path. Basically, I have not seen any new paths open up, I have seen signposts and people telling me about these paths, but I cannot see these paths that these people talk about. [/quote] Have you considered that other forces, perhaps ones youre not even recognizing consciously, are involved in your decision? I mean do you not find topics like the anthropic principle and cosmic fine tuning absolutely mindblowing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 [quote name='mortify' timestamp='1313728409' post='2291155'] Have you considered that other forces, perhaps ones youre not even recognizing consciously, are involved in your decision? I mean do you not find topics like the anthropic principle and cosmic fine tuning absolutely mindblowing? [/quote] [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcBV-cXVWFw"]Reality is certainly fascinating[/url]. There are well over 200 billion galaxies in our universe alone. Each galaxy with dwarf galaxies having 10 million stars and giant galaxies with 100 trillion stars. Our galaxy, The Milky Way has around 200-400 billion stars. By my thinking Space is likely to be infinite in size and hence likely to contain an infinite amount of universes. What can happen, will happen, is happening and has already happened. There are probably an infinite amount of creatures within space which have the exact same DNA structure as yourself, looking exactly like you do, problem is that space is so large that you will likely never meet any of them. We can imagine and theorise to our hearts content, but when it comes down to it the most important things (IMHO) are what we know. Theories are exciting, but are meaningless unless we take steps to discover knowledge to support them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1313752957' post='2291218'] [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcBV-cXVWFw"]Reality is certainly fascinating[/url]. There are well over 200 billion galaxies in our universe alone. Each galaxy with dwarf galaxies having 10 million stars and giant galaxies with 100 trillion stars. Our galaxy, The Milky Way has around 200-400 billion stars. By my thinking Space is likely to be infinite in size and hence likely to contain an infinite amount of universes. What can happen, will happen, is happening and has already happened. There are probably an infinite amount of creatures within space which have the exact same DNA structure as yourself, looking exactly like you do, problem is that space is so large that you will likely never meet any of them.[/quote] So you believe in a multiverse? Interesting. I'm sure you're aware that we can't observe another universe, and that therefore such a belief is precisely that, a belief. But it's even more interesting that you bring it up considering the point I raised about the anthropic principle. In the 1960's Physicists were making discoveries that made them realize something peculiar about our universe. If laws had been different, or if there were slight changes to certain constants, our universe would not exist. So for example, if the force from the big bang was slightly stronger matter would have never formed planets and stars. If on the hand gravity was slightly more powerful the universe would have ended in an early crunch. When I say "slight" I mean extremely slight. We're taking 10^(-60). It's for this reason that scientists began to realize that our universe is "fine tuned" for life. Pressed with this, there are really only two alternatives. One, the universe has a designer and these laws and constants are the result of a transcendent intelligence. Or two, there are many universes, such that, we are the improbable case where everything turned out right and a happy accident! Now for this multiverse speculation to work, a high number of unverses must be posited, more than a google amount! But here is the interesting thing. As mentioned earlier, we cant observe another universe, and therefore it is not science but belief. And why do people believe in a multiverse? Only one reason... so they don't have to admit the universe is designed! Poor atheists... the multiverse is the last bastion of their belief system, and what a poor foundation it is! [quote]We can imagine and theorise to our hearts content, but when it comes down to it the most important things (IMHO) are what we know. Theories are exciting, but are meaningless unless we take steps to discover knowledge to support them. [/quote] Then please retract your comment on their being a supposed infinite amount of universes. Until you have actual proof for such a belief, it remains meaningless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 [quote name='mortify' timestamp='1313900024' post='2292435'] Poor atheists... the multiverse is the last bastion of their belief system, and what a poor foundation it is! Then please retract your comment on their being a supposed infinite amount of universes. Until you have actual proof for such a belief, it remains meaningless. [/quote] and where is the actual proof that your belief is correct? like, actual proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 [quote name='mortify' timestamp='1313900024' post='2292435'] Then please retract your comment on their being a supposed infinite amount of universes. Until you have actual proof for such a belief, it remains meaningless. [/quote] I just said that it is likely given that space is likely infinite in nature. It's not really a belief of mine, just a thought. If space isn't infinite, I would love to know what happens at the edge of space, you know, where space runs out. Space being a coordinate system, not a substance BTW, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1313901859' post='2292456'] and where is the actual proof that your belief is correct? like, actual proof. [/quote] [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1313901859' post='2292456'] and where is the actual proof that your belief is correct? like, actual proof. [/quote] Whether you recognize an answer to this question will largely depend on you. You seem like a pretty modernized western human being, so I presume "actual proof" is limited to what is essentially self evident and easily observable. And so if you're question is what is the "actual proof" of God, then the answer will have to lie within yourself. Each person will have to look within themselves and their lives and see whether a God is there. The capacity to believe is ultimately a gift from God, it can't be merited or willed by man. This is something the contemporary West does not understand. It's materialism makes it think faith is the sole work of man, but this is not true. God gives us enough evidence to believe, but ultimately we reach a point where reason reaches its limits, and at that point grace must carry us the rest of the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1313916655' post='2292499'] I just said that it is likely given that space is likely infinite in nature. It's not really a belief of mine, just a thought. If space isn't infinite, I would love to know what happens at the edge of space, you know, where space runs out. Space being a coordinate system, not a substance BTW, [/quote] My issue was with your [u]belief[/u] in an infinite amount of universes. You have to realize that we can't observe another universe and that your belief is [u]metaphysical[/u], and not strictly science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 [quote name='mortify' timestamp='1313948917' post='2292634'] Whether you recognize an answer to this question will largely depend on you. You seem like a pretty modernized western human being, so I presume "actual proof" is limited to what is essentially self evident and easily observable. And so if you're question is what is the "actual proof" of God, then the answer will have to lie within yourself. Each person will have to look within themselves and their lives and see whether a God is there. The capacity to believe is ultimately a gift from God, it can't be merited or willed by man. This is something the contemporary West does not understand. It's materialism makes it think faith is the sole work of man, but this is not true. God gives us enough evidence to believe, but ultimately we reach a point where reason reaches its limits, and at that point grace must carry us the rest of the way. [/quote] listen , i am a christian, but absolutely none of what you posted there would count as "proof" for anything. i find it presumptuous that you are demanding a retraction on a statement on the basis that it doesnt have any proof, when your belief wont stand to the same measure. i dont go around saying "where is the proof that there is a God? provide it or retract your statement that there is one." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1313949393' post='2292643'] but absolutely none of what you posted there would count as "proof" for anything.[/quote] What makes a proposition count as proof? That it's objective, self evident, observable? We're talking about the transcendent here, thus it's beyond the categories just mentioned. The closest thing to "actual proof' will have to be subjective, i.e. what you yourself experience. Otherwise we can only point to effects that point to a transcedent cause (e.g. fine tuning points to a designer of the universe.) I know this is not what you're looking for, but this is the reality. The only thing that will satisfy the proof you are looking for is seeing God, and since you claim to be Christian I'm sure you understand that this is only obtained when you die, and only if you're worthy of it. [quote]i find it presumptuous that you are demanding a retraction on a statement on the basis that it doesnt have any proof, when your belief wont stand to the same measure.[/quote] You missed the point entirely. Stevil set the criteria that we should stick with what we *know* and that things that can't be proven are essentially meaningless. If he really believes this, he will give up his belief in a multiverse. [quote] i dont go around saying "where is the proof that there is a God? provide it or retract your statement that there is one." [/quote] I don't do that either, read the discussion in context before jumping in. Edited August 21, 2011 by mortify Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 [quote name='mortify' timestamp='1313949020' post='2292637'] My issue was with your [u]belief[/u] in an infinite amount of universes. You have to realize that we can't observe another universe and that your belief is [u]metaphysical[/u], and not strictly science. [/quote] It's like I'm talking to a troll. Telling me that I believe in something that I have clearly told you that I don't. That doesn't mean that I believe there is only one universe (as ridiculous as it seems), similar to my not believing in god/s, that doesn't mean that I have a belief that there are no gods. There are an infinite possibilities, but the way to narrow this down to find the one true answer is to explore and test, objectivily and in a way that is recreatable also with an open mind, with no emotional attachment to any preconcieved conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1313954364' post='2292732'] It's like I'm talking to a troll. Telling me that I believe in something that I have clearly told you that I don't.[/quote] From post 110: [color=#0000ff]"By my thinking Space is likely to be infinite in size and hence likely to contain an infinite amount of universes."[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 [quote name='mortify' timestamp='1314050422' post='2293351'] From post 110: [color=#0000ff]"By my thinking Space is likely to be infinite in size and hence likely to contain an infinite amount of universes."[/color] [/quote] I guess it begs the question as to what probability is applied to such words as: possibly likely probably almost certainly belief Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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