Death To Laundry Machines And Air Conditioners

[Era Might]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1312908185' post='2284801']
Well, say what you will about modern technology being made "because we can." That's how tech develops- some maniac engineer or designer or tinkerer gets an idea, and he won't stop until it's built. Reasons? Well, some guys do it because they really need a particular tool, others do it because no one else has done it and they crave a challenge. If you're like me you build things just because you can, for the fulfilment of BUILDING. Unfortunately being an engineer in our society means you have to build a product, otherwise you will have no job. As a hobby-engineer I can break out of that and build what I like, since it's no longer about profit.

My take on modern society's desire to take self-sustenance away from all men is not to revert to being agricultural peons digging with sticks and washing with plungers, but to take modern technology and remove the proprietary element so that everyone can have a shot at building it or owning it. You would be surprised at how many crucial parts of modern life are encumbered by patents, regulation, and trade secrecy. That takes the means of production out of men's hands and leaves it to corporations or governments. Which in turn keeps the technology being produced from ever really taking root in the world. In the US we take modern mechanised agriculture for granted. In Africa people can't drill modern wells, make modern irrigation, and don't have access to the mechanised means of planting and harvesting that are needed to get good yield from limited amounts of land. And I'm convinced it has as much to do with that technology being kept inaccessible in terms of knowledge as it does in terms of price.
[/quote]
I agree completely that technology can be a wonderful thing and can help us in great ways. BUT, only if it is done within limits, because beyond certain limits good things can become bad things. I'm speaking of both personal and social limits.

I'm really interested in your point about patents and what not. Like you say, "research and development" is often in the service of institutional machinery like military or government or universities.

But as far as technology developing "because we can," that's dangerous, although you're probably right that that's how it develops. Especially today, when technology (and science in general) is seen as a god before whom we are all deaf and mute, we can do a lot of stuff that we can imagine...but that doesn't mean we should. Space exploration is a good example. I won't argue whether we should or shouldn't be in space, but in the general mentality just the fact that we can go to space is justification to do so. And of course, back when space exploration was just beginning, it was fueled by the machinery I referenced before: government and military, the cold war, etc.

I intensely dislike new technology like iPhones. I'm sure they're useful in ways, but I despise the need to constantly buy a new gadget. Just on the level of the gadget they would interest me, but once they get caught up in the machinery (in this case, economic machinery) I am suffocated.

Your Africa example is interesting, because it's an example of how people can be disabled by modernization. Technology can help them direct their own lives without requiring them to invest the imposed technological and technocratic infrastructure that the West has devoted itself to. I like how you put it: put the means of production in their hands. BUT, I would also add that at the same time we need to be careful not to make "production" the end of everything...industrialization (within limits) can be a good, but beyond those limits Africa will suffer the same fate we have.

Edited August 9, 2011 by Era Might

[arfink]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1312910042' post='2284850']
But as far as technology developing "because we can," that's dangerous, although you're probably right that that's how it develops. Especially today, when technology (and science in general) is seen as a god before whom we are all deaf and mute, we can do a lot of stuff that we can imagine...but that doesn't mean we should. Space exploration is a good example. I won't argue whether we should or shouldn't be in space, but in the general mentality just the fact that we can go to space is justification to do so. And of course, back when space exploration was just beginning, it was fueled by the machinery I referenced before: government and military, the cold war, etc.

I intensely dislike new technology like iPhones. I'm sure they're useful in ways, but I despise the need to constantly buy a new gadget. Just on the level of the gadget they would interest me, but once they get caught up in the machinery (in this case, economic machinery) I am suffocated.

Your Africa example is interesting, because it's an example of how people can be disabled by modernization. Technology can help them direct their own lives without requiring them to invest the imposed technological and technocratic infrastructure that the West has devoted itself to. I like how you put it: put the means of production in their hands. BUT, I would also add that at the same time we need to be careful not to make "production" the end of everything...industrialization (within limits) can be a good, but beyond those limits Africa will suffer the same fate we have.
[/quote]

OK, well let me put it this way. Having been raised in a family where each patriarch has been an engineer for at least 4 generations, I was always taught this about developing technology: You'll never know how you can use it until you build it and see. The guys developing the triac, vacuum tubes, transistors, they all had one idea in mind- radio. None of them could be fully prepared for the speed with which digital logic would arise, and the integrated circuit. It just happened after the fact.

The space race on the other hand was fuelled by cold war anxiety for the delivering of nukes. Space travel was NOT spontaneously developed. No one was really doing it independently before the US and Russia took it up, except maybe Hitler, who was doing it for the same reason, just without nukes. It was conceived for one purpose: to gain the advantage in the cold war. It's why space travel is only now beginning to see growth in the private sector, with people doing it strictly "for fun." So I don't concede your point there. We didn't develop it just because we could, only to find it taken over by evil government influences. We developed that specifically so that we could utterly destroy out enemies if we wanted to.

Now I'm not advocating that we worship science and technology at all. But I do think that it's a very good thing that it develops so spontaneously. Spontaneity of development is what helps to keep technology out of the hands of tyrants and in the hands of the people who develop it.

[Era Might]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1312911532' post='2284885']But I do think that it's a very good thing that it develops so spontaneously. Spontaneity of development is what helps to keep technology out of the hands of tyrants and in the hands of the people who develop it.
[/quote]
Can you think of a major technology that did not eventually get into the hands of tyrants? I would disagree that spontaneity can prevent this. The only thing that can prevent it is self-chosen limitations. We don't even have to be enslaved to a technology. We only have to be enslaved to our commitment to a technology for the kind of freedom you're talking about to be lost. For example, once we embarked on a society where expensive and high energy-consuming machines were the norm, then our freedom of movement was gone forever. The two feet people traveled on for millenia became secondary in our social design. Did that have to be the course we embarked on? No, we could have used modern technology to give feet and bicycles preeminence, and automobiles secondary status. But we did not choose that course, and now we cannot imagine life without automobiles and the pollution and traffic and immobility and big business that goes with it.

Edited August 9, 2011 by Era Might

[arfink]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1312911532' post='2284885']
But I do think that it's a very good thing that it develops so spontaneously. Spontaneity of development is what [b]helps[/b] to keep technology out of the hands of tyrants and in the hands of the people who develop it.
[/quote]

Emphasis added for clarity. It's better than putting it into their mouth on a silver spoon.
Keep in mind I generally agree with your points, I just wanted to add some perspective and keep things lively. Thanks for being a good sport about it!

[Era Might]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1312947853' post='2285344']

Emphasis added for clarity. It's better than putting it into their mouth on a silver spoon.
Keep in mind I generally agree with your points, I just wanted to add some perspective and keep things lively. Thanks for being a good sport about it!
[/quote]
Oh I love these kinds of discussions! Thank YOU for throwing your own thoughts in.

[ardillacid]

Patents reward innovation and the billions dumped into R and D.

[arfink]

[quote name='ardillacid' timestamp='1313027529' post='2285613']
Patents reward innovation and the billions dumped into R and D.
[/quote]

That's not what patents were invented for. They were invented to speed the dissemination of new inventions and innovations, and now they are used to horde them. See, before the patent office, if you wanted to keep people from copying your inventions you'd just keep them trade secret. Now you can publish the patent AND keep it trade secret at the same time through patent obfuscation and it gives you the ability to sue the living snot out of anyone who does manage to find out your trade secrets.

Now, there is a time and a place for that. But basic farming implements? Generic drugs? Well digging equipment? Infrastructure developments? I would even consider things like networking, telephone, and computing now to be basic infrastructure the world needs to have.