Stuggling With The Catholic Faith

[Azriel]

I have no other advice to add except that maybe making an appt with the Priest or Deacon at your Church to discuss some of these things would help. Of course we here at PM can offer our insight, but doing it live and in person with a representative of the Church would be a great thing. Prayers for you!

[thessalonian]

"if the birth control is preventing ovulation, thus preventing an egg from being fertilized, thus preventing an unwanted pregnancy, doesn't that reduce the number of abortions anyway?"

In fact if you look at the abortion data it has increased with availability of the pill. The problem is that promiscuity has greatly increased due to the pill. People have sex outside of marriage far more than they used to and sometimes they decide not to use the pill or the pill is not as effective. An huge increase in STD's can also be linked to the pill. In the 1950's less than 2% of the sexually active had an STD. Today as I recall it is closer to 50% and there are many more sexually active. Abstinance is the ONLY way to cure these problems in society.

"I believe that homosexuality is okay because love is love. "

You are confusing sex and love. It is in no way immoral for two men or two women to love each other. If a man loves six women would he be okay to have sex with them all? To marry them all? If you say "love is love" and homosexuality is okay you have no basis for saying that these behaviors are wrong. The basis for morality has to be what God says is moral or the basis is relative and a matter of opinion, with no real ability to know right from wrong. Again homosexual acts are contrary to natural law. Thus they actually harm the person. Homosexuality causes grave psychological harm to those who engage in it, not to mention physical harm with aides and STDs. It is not loving to engage in activity that harms the other person you claim to love.

Edited August 4, 2011 by thessalonian

[mortify]

[quote name='Ann-Elizabeth' timestamp='1312439740' post='2281394']
Sorry, I'm responding from my phone so it didn't quite work, but to answer your question, I believe that homosexuality is okay because love is love. I can only hope that when I'm older, I'll find a man who I love, and who loves me. And let's say a friend of mine finds a woman who she loves and loves her back, and that's okay. It's love, plain and simple.[/quote]

I think you've just succinctly expressed the contemporary Western worldview. Basically if it makes a person happy, why not do it? And even if I personally find a particular behavior as wrong, that's not to say it's perfectly acceptable to another. But that's not how the majority of the world thinks. Most cultures and societies recognize that if individuals followed their own wants, irregardless of the nature of an action, it would lead to problems! So for example, when the question of homosexuality came up among my foreign college friends, I was surprised to find the agreement we had. Whether a person was from mainlaind China, Vietnam, Gujurat India, or Africa, the consensus was the same, homosexuality is wrong. Realizing that different and independent societies/civilizations came to the same conclusion, only added to what the Church was teaching. Now here is the point most Americans just don't understand. The Catholic church is not the American Church, rather it is the Universal Church. Just because a small part of her already small congregation of American followers (something like less than 8%) decided to change their views on homosexuality, that doesn't mean the Church will suddenly force the minority opinion on the majority. Now the same principle works with time. The Church has been around for a long time, much longer than any contemporary Western society. In fact, the Church was around back when the Romans were throwing her sons and daughters to the lions! And even though the Church has been around this long, her opinion on homosexuality hasn't changed. From the Church's perspective, so what that over the 20 years a part of the world started looking at homosexuality differently, when we've been viewing it the same way for the past 2000 years! That's why its rather arrogant for any Westerner to suggest that the Church change her views. But anyway, I'm just giving you a perspective on this issue, we haven't really discussed the rightness or wrongness of it.

The first thing to note is that love is partially a desire, that is, an attraction we can't always control. And the thing about attractions is that they are morally blind. I can be attracted to a good thing, a bad thing, or a morally neutral thing! The point is, whatever the object of our attraction is, needs to be weighed out by our reason, and not the attraction itself. If a person has an attraction for apples over oranges, that is no problem, but what if this person is a 40 year old man who is attracted to teens! It's a crude example, but I'm willing to bet most Americans, even of he liberal persuasion, would find a relationship between an older man and a teen morally abhorrent. But why? We know for example that certain ancient Greek societies did condone the relationship between a pederast and a catamite, it's even depicted on their pottery! But here is where the contemporary Western double standard comes in, because in such a case merely having "love" or "attraction" is not sufficient. The relationship is itself discerned as abhorrent.

Now for most of human history, irrespective of geography, this has been the general attitude towards homosexuality. This is not why the Church has a negative view towards it of course. The Church recognizes homosexuality as against natural law, that is, contrary to human nature, and therefore it's an objective wrong that can be recognized by reason without the aid of religion (coincides with the fact that other societies have the same view of homosexuality!).

Anyway, enough writing for now... break is over

Peace

[Adrestia]

[quote name='Ann-Elizabeth' timestamp='1312439740' post='2281394']
And I've been thinking about it, and I'm beginning to see the Catholic church as my mormon friends. I don't agree with everything they believe in ( ie: planets in the afterlife and whatnot) but I'm still their friends, because at the end of the day, they still matter to me.
[/quote]

Ann-Elizabeth,

I lived next to Mormon missionaries for several months. During that time we became good friends and I still keep in contact with a few of them. One is getting married tomorrow, & I'm a little bummed that I'm not allowed to go.

May I ask you about your understanding of their view of Catholicism? I ask because my Mormon friends weren't able to explain things to me clearly.

The missionaries down here tried in earnest to explain their view of Catholicism to me, but their statements contained temporal inconsistencies that they could not explain. For example, they said that the Mormon church believes that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, but that it is completed by the Book of Mormon. They specifically stated that they believe everything that is in the Bible. They also said that they believe that the early Christian communities did not follow the example of the Apostles. Their exact words were that the church lost all authority on earth when the last Apostle of Christ died.

I asked them if they believed that God would abandon the early church. They answered no - it was not God that abandoned the early church, it was the people that abandoned God - the people turned away from God's teachings after the last Apostle of Christ died.

I next asked how it was that these people of the early church, after they turned away from God, were able to compile the Bible. They had no answer. One missionary said that he had actually never thought about it, but would get back to me. He never did.

I also asked how they account for the documents that suggest the people of the early church were trying to follow the example of Christ. No answer. One tried to express to me that it really didn't matter because it relates to the history of my church and not his (Mormon) church. I disagree with him on that point - the history of the Mormon church presumes that the Catholic church has no authority because people turned away from God. If we have evidence to suggest otherwise, shouldn't it matter?

Finally I asked, if these people had turned away from God, why would they continue to struggle and be persecuted in His name? No answer. By this point I think the young men were becoming frustrated, so I let the subject die.


Anyway, it's not a big deal, I'm just curious since you brought it up.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Ann-Elizabeth' timestamp='1312439740' post='2281394']
And I know that I'm opening a whole other can of worms with what I'm about to say, but someone mentioned birth control, and I don't think it's a sin either. Because I take it. Now before anyone goes after me for it, I'm NOT taking it to prevent a pregnancy. I don't plan to have sex until I'm married. I take it because I have back acne (gross, I know) and it helps to clear it up.
[/quote]

You take birth control to clear up acne? Are you kidding?!! Um... how did you figure that out? Did somebody tell you that you should take birth control to clear up acne??? This sounds totally ridiculous to me. There are much more effective ways of clearing up acne. Do your parents know that you're taking birth control? You know there ARE side effects to birth control. You know beyond making you fat. You're doing some bad stuff to your body..

[quote name='Ann-Elizabeth' timestamp='1312439740' post='2281394']
And I've been thinking about it, and I'm beginning to see the Catholic church as my mormon friends. I don't agree with everything they believe in ( ie: planets in the afterlife and whatnot) but I'm still their friends, because at the end of the day, they still matter to me.
[/quote]

I think that you'd encounter more problems in the Mormon church because of your views on abortion and homosexuality than in the Catholic church. The modern Catholic church is probably [b]THE[/b] church of choice for a homosexual. Do you realize how many homosexual priests there are? And even though I've heard abortion mentioned at Mass it's almost always at the very end -- and only briefly touched on. Usually most of the sermons are so vague that there's almost nothing in them to offend anybody (Okay okay.. here in Escondido -- where I live -- the Catholic church and the priests are pretty good, but that's unique.)

I have relatives who considered themselves very "progressive" and they like to fight with the Catholic church -- while still attending. I personally think that is a bit idiotic, but if that's what they wanted to waste their time on....

Of course I'm not exactly somebody who should be arguing religion. I'm basically an atheist. I don't honestly believe in the god of the Bible or life after death. I wish that there was life after death but I'm afraid that when you die -- you just die. It's the one thing that makes the most sense to me.. But I do believe that the Bible contains philosophical "truths". There are certain ways that you can live that will lead to a happier more fulfilling life. So I have a completely opposite perspective. If you asked me to explain why homosexuality or abortion were wrong I'd give you a completely different reason than you'd get from somebody religious. But I'm still opposed to both of those things. I don't think that you should overlook the wisdom in the Bible.

[Adrestia]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1312510961' post='2281714']
You take birth control to clear up acne? Are you kidding?!! Um... how did you figure that out? Did somebody tell you that you should take birth control to clear up acne??? This sounds totally ridiculous to me. There are much more effective ways of clearing up acne. Do your parents know that you're taking birth control? You know there ARE side effects to birth control. You know beyond making you fat. You're doing some bad stuff to your body..
[/quote]

I have an MD and PhD from university that is ranked in the top 20 in the USA. Oral contraceptive pills (OCP) can help some types of acne. Before you tell someone that is sounds ridiculous to you, ask an expert. You obviously have no rigorous medical training, if any at all - so you have no foundation to make condescending comments. Oral contraceptives can also be helpful for treating some other conditions. Short term use has shown some health benefits, long term use can have serious drawbacks - I'm talking cancer or blood clots that cause strokes - not just weight gain. The jury is still out on other major long term effects. Some women are born with hormone imbalances that are greatly aided by OCP use.

Medical hormone therapy, when not used to prevent or terminate pregnancy, is not inherently sinful - especially when the person taking it is unmarried and chaste.

That being said, due to its side effects, it should not be a first line treatment option.

[thessalonian]

"You take birth control to clear up acne? Are you kidding?!! Um... how did you figure that out? Did somebody tell you that you should take birth control to clear up acne??? This sounds totally ridiculous to me. There are much more effective ways of clearing up acne""

A simple search on google would have prevented you from having egg on your face. It is used as a treatment for acne and doesn't sound illogical at all since hormones do have a role in acne.

[thessalonian]

adrestia, you said

I next asked how it was that these people of the early church, after they turned away from God, were able to compile the Bible. They had no answer. One missionary said that he had actually never thought about it, but would get back to me. He never did""

Excellent question! The bible that they use was created by what they would call apostates.