Why Real Men Are So Hard To Find

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1312214975' post='2279721']
I hope you see this advice in the right light. I admire your passion and drive but I think you might benefit from another perspective. BTW this is coming from someone who was a youth minister for 10 years and consults fairly regularly for youth programs.

First of all, you seem disappointed that there aren't ton of teens showing up for youth events. One thing that was made clear to me is that if you want youth to show up to your events, you have to invest in their events. I would go to band concerts, football games, hockey games, danceline competitions, etc to cheer and support the students from my church (whether they were active in my program or not). This brings me to another point. There is NOTHING wrong with soccer camp. In fact your teens should be applauded for wanting to improve themselves. Better than what a majority of teens are doing.

Christ went out to meet the people in need. He didn't wait for them to show up. That's a pretty good model. Jesus also took a couple years to set up his ministry the way he wanted. Also a good model. It takes time! And since I wasn't Christ, it would take me longer than a couple years to set up a program effectively.
[/quote]

Except that our youth go to 6 different high schools and few of them are involved in the same teams and events. I find I have to have events that they really want to go and evangelize at those events (which are 100% social non-church related events). Or else yes, you have to go where they are, get out of your shell, show interest in their lives, make sure they know who you are and that you care.

Sports has taken over God for our youths time. Yes, sports (and drama, band, choir, part time jobs, etc) are great and necessary and important, however they have effectively pushed Catholic youth ministry out of the way along with sacramental ministry (which all youth ministry must be oriented towards) and parents are enabling it. Also, they are far too busy with these things. That is the number one complaint from parents. Instead of something to help them grow and keep them off the streets and out of trouble, parents never see their teens anymore and they are only learning worldly culture of death values where all that matters is fame and popularity. Then the parents complain that they don't want their kids going to youth ministry because they are already doing too much. So yes, something is probably going to have to go to make God important in their life again. It might be the ultra cool rock band Protestant youth group at high school or one of the 4 sports they are playing, but the relationships in their parish community are more important, and it is okay to say that it is more important.

[Chrysophylax]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1312217275' post='2279731']

In case you haven't noticed, I'm pretty sure that's public enemy #1 for men. Many guys don't like to face up to the fact that it's a serious problem, and so they don't want to go to Confession. For me, it takes going to Confession every week, which I still do. So yeah, we're gonna lose a lot of men to this, until we can get them to see the value of confession. It's better to sin and go to confession every week than to just sin and never confess and commit sacrilege. Of course, it's always preferable to just give up on the sin, but you have to start somewhere.

In fact, at times I have contemplated starting a young men's group and calling it the "Confession Crew" and we'd do stuff on Saturday mornings after all going to Confession. An idea I would really like to make into something more.

One final thing to consider about working with young men: In my experience you'll almost always do better if you meet a man where he's at and lead him somewhere, rather than just meeting him at his level and chilling out there, or waiting at the high ground for him to come over to your side. So don't assume that Christian pop music by itself will lure young men. If I know anything about young men, we're selfish to a tee with our personal interests. A very very common fault that society plants in us practically from birth. So you almost always have to make yourself at least seem interested in what he's interested in (without committing sin or scandal) just to be able to talk effectively with him. This is how brotherhood is supposed to work- to be close to someone you will need to waste time with them, and once a beginning bond is formed you can have something to build upon. But it can take great lengths to get even a tiny gossamer thread of brotherhood formed for some men, so don't feel bad if it takes you a long time to do so. That's how you get a man to listen to you with more than just his ears.
[/quote]

That is a great idea. I think something like that should be started for gals, too, and we could go do fun girl stuff after, like shopping and movies. I think one of the big things for girls about receiving communion when you shouldn't is just the fact that there are so many people in church who would see you not receiving. Another thing with that, though, is that when you do see someone else not receive because they need to go to confession, you just (or I do) say to yourself "thank you thank you thank you" and love them for their great witness. I think one of the things that influenced me most in my life in this area was seeing my cousin not receive and my little brother ask her why not. The simple answer was "I need to go to confession." (This was very influential to me, esp. because it was my girl cousin, and I think seeing this from a girls perspective is so different.) I think for teens, seeing other people do the right thing in a very public setting has a very big impact, esp. when you know how hard it would be to do the same.

[arfink]

[quote name='ContemporaryCaflicCrusader' timestamp='1312561627' post='2281965']

Confession Crew sounds like a really good idea. I would like to take that to the streets this upcoming school year at my parrish, if you don't mind.
[/quote]

Go for it. I will have to contact some of my friends and see what I can do around here. I know a few people who will want to be involved right away. My vision is for the "substance" of the group to be the "going to confession" part, and afterwards it can be as fun/whatever as we want. Perhaps crashing someone's house for a waffle party or playing nerf / frisbee / VIDEO GAMES WOOT / whatever.

EDIT: Funny thing about getting people with freshly cleaned souls together just to have fun- it's spiritually uplifting in a way that's hard to describe. No preachy-ness required.

Edited August 5, 2011 by arfink

[Adrestia]

[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1312566368' post='2281994']
Sports has taken over God for our youths time. Yes, sports (and drama, band, choir, part time jobs, etc) are great and necessary and important, however they have effectively pushed Catholic youth ministry out of the way along with sacramental ministry (which all youth ministry must be oriented towards) and parents are enabling it.
[/quote]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the secular activities and church activities used to be scheduled in such a way that parents did not have to choose between them.  I know young men that would like to be altar servers, but can't due to soccer practice.  It seems silly to me that the soccer team can't work something out for the boys who want to serve at their church.

[arfink]

The Jews had to fight this battle with the Greeks way back when, what with the gymnasium at all. Cultural architects know that sports will lure young men away from their traditions. Young people who value their faith may want to band together to form their own sporting leagues, like they used to do back in the day.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1312567379' post='2282005']
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the secular activities and church activities used to be scheduled in such a way that parents did not have to choose between them. I know young men that would like to be altar servers, but can't due to soccer practice. It seems silly to me that the soccer team can't work something out for the boys who want to serve at their church.
[/quote]

I think you are right that they used to be, however that time is long gone, at least in our region. I would love to be able to coordinate events with sports and other clubs and have tried in the past. We have games in our area held on Sunday morning. Even the Knights hold golf on Sunday morning. Mandatory practice for one local Catholic high school was held at 3:00 PM on Good Friday. Teens typically have to practice 6-7 days a week for 3 hours a day at a minimum to be on any given team and virtually everyone is involved in multiple activities. Most coaches really don't care, especially the Catholic ones. I want to be understanding to their schedules but they certainly are not to ours. In one instance last year the coaches became angry because they couldn't use a local church school gym during catechism classes due to the noise so they tried to go over the heads of all of the administration there. It's often not pretty which is why many youth ministers and priests can become resentful of sports and other activities especially when teens aren't going to Mass or youth group in the first place.

Edited to add: I don't think there has to be a conflict. Exercise is very important for teens spiritually, competition is healthy, and it builds community, but God must be central to that. When we can't even get teens to come to sports oriented religious retreats something has gone wrong and needs to be corrected without having to choose one or the other.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='ContemporaryCaflicCrusader' timestamp='1312159982' post='2279498']
I've had this discussion a lot lately. There are SOOOOO few of us REAL catholics out there my age (early 20s) I'm helping to run a youth ministry in my parish and we can't believe the lack of interest. The teenagers here don't have a relationship God: there just thinking of how they can get away with making out with someone, so no one can see them. We have the biggest christian music festival in New England coming up with bands like RED, Switchfoot, Thousand Foot Krutch, John Reuben, Flatfoot 56, Skillet, Sanctus Real, Third Day, The Almost andf much more. These bands make public radio. Skillet reached no. 1 on the secular rock charts THIS YEAR!!!!! And these kids would rather go to there soccer camp. We might get 4 kids to go this year which would be record setting.

Need less to say I had to drive 35 minutes to the nearest Youth Ministry worth going to back in the day. Of the 90 kids or so in my diosease my age that really care about there catholic faith like 28 of em are guys! You figure a third of these guys are going to be celebate that gives us about 19 guys in the diosease (This is a rough estimate btw) who supossedly give a croutons. And when I went to all the peer leadership retreats (they're are almost never more than 4 guys there) in small groups and I typically find that I'm the only one that isn't carrying the mortal sin of masterbation and recieving Jesus' Body in the state of mortal sin.

I used to have guy friends i could talk about the faith with, and I mean the good the bad and the ugly part of living the faith in a society that reeks of feakish misery and selfishness. In high school I had maybe a dozen or so strewn out throughout somewhat nearby. Now I have 1. An amesome guy that was Young Apostle with me from NJ. But my close buddies that I still airsoft with and stuff that were all gung ho for there faith coming out of retreats and stuff don't want to be real anymore. They don't wanna do more then spend there hour at mass on sunday and give into the good enuf and then go play D&D and watch South Park. Being catholic is to love, follow the rules and be forgivin. That means asking for forgivness in the confessional and forgiving everyone else that wounds you. Not on your knees in your bedroom when no one else is looking.

So why are there so few of us. Fear. And we give up to easily. Most of us haven't experienced a retreat like setting that gets them on fire for there faith. Then if they do: they fear the change and don't have the ferocity to keep trying to please God and not giving into temptation. Sorry this kinda endend up more of a rant then I thought it might be but I think we should talk about ways to cut down on fear and make us want to stick with it. As well as any other thoughts that might be on your mind somewhat related to this topic. I didn't intend to offend anyone, so I hope I didn't, lemme know.
[/quote]

Do you expect people to spend 24/7 at their parish? People do have a life outside of the parish, after all. Over-demanding church people is a red flag for a religious cult.

I don't mean to sound rude, but you do need to look at your attitude. Are you simply looking to "drum up business", so to speak, or looking for an ego boost/accolades from high attendance?

And the whole masturbation thing? No offense, but how do you know if they are receiving in sin? Do people volunteer that sort of information that easily? Do you follow them around 24/7 and record how many times they do that? And do you have the confessionals bugged to verify if they confess it or not?

Edited August 5, 2011 by Norseman82

[Norseman82]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1312567846' post='2282011']
The Jews had to fight this battle with the Greeks way back when, what with the gymnasium at all. Cultural architects know that sports will lure young men away from their traditions. Young people who value their faith may want to band together to form their own sporting leagues, like they used to do back in the day.
[/quote]

Let me know when the "Catholic Cage Match" is scheduled.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1312222730' post='2279781']
YEESH TELL ME ABOUT IT.
All good Catholic guys are either nonexistent in my area, in a relationship, or discerning priesthood.
Makes life very hard for a Catholic girl discerning marriage.



Sorry if I'm bitter. lol.
[/quote]
[quote name='BG45' timestamp='1312238330' post='2279973']

Tell me about it. All the good Catholic girls in my area are taken, becoming nuns, or don't exist (slash I've yet to meet them). Of course I'm also not allowed to date the undergrads that go here, so even if they did exist, I'd not be allowed to even try. Fortunately you're going to Steubie soon, I'm sure there are plenty of serious Catholic guys there.
[/quote]
[quote name='tinytherese' timestamp='1312235896' post='2279953']

I know how you feel girl and I'm 22. The majority of decent Catholic guys are either taken, deciding to be single because they think that God is calling them to that or because of something in their past thinking that no woman would love them, or discerning the priesthood. One of friends from high school goes to a Catholic university where there's a seminary and she has complained multiple times that the seminarians are really polite and into their faith while the other guys on campus are not like that.
[/quote]

And you can thank the pushing of the so-called "single vocation" as one of the reasons the "dating pool" is not well-stocked.

[4588686]

[quote name='ContemporaryCaflicCrusader' timestamp='1312159982' post='2279498']
I've had this discussion a lot lately. [b]There are SOOOOO few of us REAL catholics out there my age (early 20s) [/b]I'm helping to run a youth ministry in my parish and we can't believe the lack of interest. The teenagers here don't have a relationship God: there just thinking of how they can get away with making out with someone, so no one can see them. We have the biggest christian music festival in New England coming up with bands like RED, Switchfoot, Thousand Foot Krutch, John Reuben, Flatfoot 56, Skillet, Sanctus Real, Third Day, The Almost andf much more. These bands make public radio. Skillet reached no. 1 on the secular rock charts THIS YEAR!!!!! And these kids would rather go to there soccer camp. We might get 4 kids to go this year which would be record setting.

Need less to say I had to drive 35 minutes to the nearest Youth Ministry worth going to back in the day. Of the 90 kids or so in my diosease my age that really care about there catholic faith like 28 of em are guys! You figure a third of these guys are going to be celebate that gives us about 19 guys in the diosease (This is a rough estimate btw) who supossedly give a croutons. And when I went to all the peer leadership retreats (they're are almost never more than 4 guys there) in small groups and I typically find that I'm the only one that isn't carrying the mortal sin of masterbation and recieving Jesus' Body in the state of mortal sin.

I used to have guy friends i could talk about the faith with, and I mean the good the bad and the ugly part of living the faith in a society that reeks of feakish misery and selfishness. In high school I had maybe a dozen or so strewn out throughout somewhat nearby. Now I have 1. An amesome guy that was Young Apostle with me from NJ. But my close buddies that I still airsoft with and stuff that were all gung ho for there faith coming out of retreats and stuff don't want to be real anymore. They don't wanna do more then spend there hour at mass on sunday and give into the good enuf and then go play D&D and watch South Park. Being catholic is to love, follow the rules and be forgivin. That means asking for forgivness in the confessional and forgiving everyone else that wounds you. Not on your knees in your bedroom when no one else is looking.

So why are there so few of us. Fear. And we give up to easily. Most of us haven't experienced a retreat like setting that gets them on fire for there faith. Then if they do: they fear the change and don't have the ferocity to keep trying to please God and not giving into temptation. Sorry this kinda endend up more of a rant then I thought it might be but I think we should talk about ways to cut down on fear and make us want to stick with it. As well as any other thoughts that might be on your mind somewhat related to this topic. I didn't intend to offend anyone, so I hope I didn't, lemme know.
[/quote]

Wow.

At my youth group you had about 150 young teens volunteering to go to St. Paul of the Cross Monastary for a week where they sat through (often) two masses a day plus adoration plus keeping Benedictine hours, et cetera.

I helped run the thing one year. You know one strategy we employed? Not having a giant flooping attitude where we sat around whining about how everybody else just gosh darn it wasn't up to our standards and weren't 'real men' like us.

Honestly, with your contemptuous attitude I wouldn't want to participate in any event you were associated with either.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Hasan

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1312588211' post='2282143']
Honestly, with your contemptuous attitude I wouldn't want to participate in any event you were associated with either.
[/quote]

Fail.

[Winchester]

[img]http://www.gaj-it.com/wp-content/uploads/nuke.jpg[/img]

[Winchester]

[img]http://wackyiraqi.com/wtf/libya_jet_i_like_where_this_thread_is_going.jpg[/img]

[ContemporaryCaflicCrusader]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1312588211' post='2282143']

Wow.

At my youth group you had about 150 young teens volunteering to go to St. Paul of the Cross Monastary for a week where they sat through (often) two masses a day plus adoration plus keeping Benedictine hours, et cetera.

I helped run the thing one year. You know one strategy we employed? Not having a giant flooping attitude where we sat around whining about how everybody else just gosh darn it wasn't up to our standards and weren't 'real men' like us.

Honestly, with your contemptuous attitude I wouldn't want to participate in any event you were associated with either.
[/quote]

Sounds like your loss to me Hasan.

[Winchester]

disappoint