Poor Clares Vs. Carmelites

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='truthfinder' timestamp='1312000927' post='2278428']

Not to sound dense, but what do you mean by this? We are all supposed to kneel at Mass ( I don't know what your local parish or bishop has mandated, however.) Is this something particular to this community? Thanks
[/quote]
They kneel throughout - well, not the bits we stand for, but all the bits we usually sit for. They come to the front of choir around the grille(which they open for Mass, although they are inside enclosure) and kneel on their prayerstools, only those unable to kneel (elderly etc) have little wooden chairs.

[truthfinder]

[quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1312010566' post='2278438']
They kneel throughout - well, not the bits we stand for, but all the bits we usually sit for. They come to the front of choir around the grille(which they open for Mass, although they are inside enclosure) and kneel on their prayerstools, only those unable to kneel (elderly etc) have little wooden chairs.
[/quote]

Ok, that makes sense, and sounds really unique and special. Thanks for explaining that. I wonder if many other Carmels have such a tradition.

[FutureSister2009]

I think they're both great

[Chapel Rat]

Is there a difference how enclosure is lived out for the Poor Clares in comparison to the Carmelites?

I know PC take a vow of enclosure.

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='Chapel Rat' timestamp='1312216311' post='2279725']
Is there a difference how enclosure is lived out for the Poor Clares in comparison to the Carmelites?

I know PC take a vow of enclosure.
[/quote]


I believe PCC's are under Papal enclosure, as are Discalced Carmelites. Other Poor Clares sometimes have different forms of enclosue - one community I visited was a little more fluid, the parlour was like a lounge so you could really sit with your visitors rather than opposite, and they also didn't have a seperate choir, they used an oratory for the Office then the main church at mass so mixed with the congregation. Actually, Arundel, who are PCC, also don't have a seperate choir but they do sit more apart.

But even this will vary from community to community.

[Chiara Francesco]

[quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1311982998' post='2278326']
Carmelites are hermits in community, Poor Clares are a community. Thats, for me the biggest difference. Carmelites tend to work alone, pray alone, walk alone, and are constitutionally required to retreat to their cell if they are not needed to be elsewhere, whereas Poor Clares are more likely to work together, pray together (more litanies and vocal prayers) and are not usually permitted to return to their cells except at certain times of the day.

It varies form community to community, but Poor Clares do not always get the 2hrs of private prayer that Carmelites do. As mentioned above, they do pray far moew litanies than Carmelites and from my brief visits they also pray for benefactors in a way Carmelites don't (except in a very general sense). Poor Clares tend to have more Adoration, whereas Carmelites focus on their start black crosses and choose to put themselves there with Christ.
[/quote]
--------------------

The best is to contact a PCC community from the communities below and write and talk to them and/or get books on the Franciscan/PCC order and read on the life and the spirit, etc. Below is only a bit of info on the PCC nuns:

PCCs have perpetual adoration - but not all, some have only the daytime hours due to numbers or history of that community and a few do not have any adoration other than First Friday's, feasts, etc.

Poor Clare Colettines DO get 2 hrs of mental prayer every day, the 7 Divine Offices and and have the Office of Readings with prayer at or around midnight so they go to bed and get up twice in the night. They don't pray any more Litanies or vocal prayers than the Carmelites. Most if not all the PCs/PCCs in England and Wales have a retreat house or some sort attached with their monastery that either has a sister involved somehow or not but still is strange to us in the US that have PCCs who have NO such activity attached to their monastery and lives.

Many PCC communities do work alone and separate at times and many communities do have time in the cells. Depending on the Carmel, many do NOT have much or any time in cells and do work together at a common work project and area and do not use their hermitages, if they even have them. Then there are more lax or modern ways in many of the 1991 Constitutions from modified or no habit to breaking enclosure unnecessarily by going out on errands needlessly when they DO have lay people or 3rd Order Carmelites to do this for them (I've had 2 Prioresses tell me this and say because it's "good to get out and about sometimes and see the town"- ?!, not a Carmel for me!) and other ways. Not all Carmels of course.

Perhaps the Poor Clares in England differ from the American PCCs and good PCs (like St. Louis). Poor Clares are lovers of the poor Crucified Christ and are with Him the same as Carmelites but a little differently. At Solemn Profession, a PCC nun wears a crown of thorns because she weds the Crucified Christ, He is her crucified lover.

PCCs have the 4 vows of: chastity, obedience, poverty and enclosure. They have year round fast and abstinence. They are barefoot indoors year round.

Most PCCs have the "Begging Pardon" or also known as Chapter of Faults.

They have the straw beds on planks. Silence during the day exxcept at the one recreation hour - and of course they have the Grand Silence.

[i]"Poor Clares begin on earth the occupation of the blessed in Heaven. It was for the contemplation of God that we were created. And when all activities have ceased, work of adoration and contemplation alone will go on for all eternity. If there were not a single child to teach, no infidel to convert, no sick to nurse, the vocation of the Poor Clare would still endure. She is called by God not so much to do anything as to be something. Her life and adoration prefigures eternity."[/i]

See PCCs of Roswell's site, [url="http://www.poorclaresroswell.com"]http://www.poorclaresroswell.com[/url] for writings by Mother Mary Francis, PCC and read her books:

[b]"A Right to Be Merry"[/b] - life of a PCC nun is one of the best ever. Some things have changed as it was written in the 40's or so but not much really.

Some other US PCCs websites, articles and videos posted by myself and others:

Poor Clare Coletttine nuns, Cleveland, OH:
website (site a bit crazy, scroll down on each page): [url="http://www.poorclarecolettines-cleveland.org/"]http://www.poorclare...-cleveland.org/[/url]
Photos, recent: [url="http://photos.cleveland.com/clevelandcom_photo_essays/2010/12/poor_clare_nuns_a_look_inside.html"]http://photos.cleveland.com/clevelan...ok_inside.html[/url]
Photos, older: [url="http://cmykstudios.com/poorclares/index.htm"]http://cmykstudios.c...lares/index.htm[/url]
Article: [url="http://www.cleveland.com/living/index.ssf/2010/12/poor_clare_nuns_in_cleveland_e.html"]http://www.cleveland.com/living/inde...eveland_e.html[/url]
Article: [url="http://www.cleveland.com/religion/index.ssf/2006/12/a_secluded_path_inside_the_cha.html"]http://www.cleveland.com/religion/in...e_the_cha.html[/url]


Poor Clares, St. Louis:
Webpage: [url="http://www.poor-clares.org/stlouis/st-louis.html"]http://www.poor-clar...s/st-louis.html[/url]
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYmi3Ut4LEc&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYmi3...eature=related[/url]
Article: [url="http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=18534"]http://www.catholic.org/national/nat...y.php?id=18534[/url]


Poor Clare Colettines, Einhoven, Nederlands - founded from the Roswell, NM PCCs:
website: [url="http://web.inter.nl.net/users/clarissenklooster/"]http://web.inter.nl....rissenklooster/[/url]
Video: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYmi3Ut4LEc&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYmi3...eature=related[/url]


Poor Clare Colettines, Rockford, IL:
Website: [url="http://www.rockfordpoorclares.org/"]http://www.rockfordpoorclares.org/[/url]
Site with audio, video and photos: [url="http://www.erasedfromthelandscape.com/"]http://www.erasedfromthelandscape.com/[/url]
Cloistered Life: A Day Within the Walls: [url="http://www.cloisteredlife.com/poor-clares/"]http://www.cloistere...om/poor-clares/[/url]


Poor Clare Colettines, Galway, Ireland: website [url="http://www.poorclares.ie/"]http://www.poorclares.ie[/url]
Video: [url="http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=DLYPWLNX#alertbar"]http://www.godtube.c...YPWLNX#alertbar[/url]
and
Video: [url="http://www.vimeo.com/3857794"]http://www.vimeo.com/3857794[/url]


PCCs Minooka, IL (founded from the Rockford, IL PCCs):
website: [url="http://174.120.138.8/~minooka/"]http://174.120.138.8/~minooka/[/url]
Article: [url="http://channahon-minooka.patch.com/articles/monasterys-job-is-prayer"]http://channahon-min...s-job-is-prayer[/url]
Article: [url="http://www.bradenton.com/2009/03/07/1274264/poor-clare-nuns-embrace-an-arduous.html"]http://www.bradenton...an-arduous.html[/url]
Photos: [url="http://www.chicagotribune.com/search/dispatcher.front?target=multimedia&Query=nuns+minooka"]http://www.chicagotr...ry=nuns+minooka[/url]
IRL page: [url="http://db.religiouslife.com/reg_life/irl.nsf/org/129"]http://db.religiousl...irl.nsf/org/129[/url]


PCCs Chicago/Palos Park, IL:
website: [url="http://www.chicagopoorclares.org/"]http://www.chicagopoorclares.org/[/url]


PCCs Barhamsville:
website: [url="http://poor-clares.org/"]http://poor-clares.org/[/url]


PCCs Santa Barbara, CA:
website: [url="http://www.poorclaressantabarbara.org/"]http://www.poorclaressantabarbara.org/[/url]



PCCs Aptos, CA:
website: [url="http://www.poorclaresofaptos.org/life.html"]http://www.poorclare...s.org/life.html[/url]


PCCs Los Altos Hills, CA:
website: [url="http://www.poor-clares.org/losaltos/losaltosl.html"]http://www.poor-clar.../losaltosl.html[/url]


PCCs Belleville, IL:
website and video: [url="http://www.poorclares-belleville.info/"]http://www.poorclares-belleville.info/[/url]


PCCs Roswell, NM:
[url="http://www.poorclaresroswell.com"]http://www.poorclaresroswell.com[/url]

Edited August 2, 2011 by Chiara Francesco

[MargaretTeresa]

Cleveland PCCs

A sister from there is the one who wrote A Right to be Merry, if I remember correctly. Can't wait to start it

[andibc]

Have you read "A Right to be Merry"? It's a fun book to read and will give you some insight into the Poor Clares. A Few Lines to Tell You: My Life in Carmel sold by chcweb.com will give you some insight into the Carmelites as would "My Beloved" however that book is oop and very expensive.

[OnlySunshine]

[b][i]A Right to Be Merry[/i][/b] was one of my favorite books to read for discernment. It actually made me want to discern with the Poor Clare Colettines. I am not eligible for entrance, though, because of my medication needs, but they are a beautiful order.

[TIWW]

I had been with a Poor Clare Community, and I believe each house is very unique in terms of local customs and schedules, but the original Rule of the Poor Clares originated from the Rule of Benedict. Clare lived with the Benedictines before she established her Monastery at San Damiano. They are "community" oriented. Carmelites are definitely "hermit" focused. Though there are many similarities in terms of ascetics and disciplines, the more Franciscan character of the Poor Clares, also sets them apart. I do think it is a fairly common practice for Franciscan communities to talk / recreate at the main meal, and there is a tendency for there to be more personal, interpersonal relationships established. From what I know about the Carmelites, individuals live more in isolation, and often there are boundaries about how much of ones personal life that can be shared and there is a restriction about what may be discussed. I am sure that that varies from place to place. The Mother Superior in a given Carmel tends to have a lot of power and control over how each place is run, even over the spiritual nature of the nun's life. Poor Clares have an Abbess, but her position is more that of a familial "mother" than an authority figure.