Poor Clares Vs. Carmelites

[JenDeMaria]

I hear they're so much alike, but I'm wondering how you'd compare and contrast them? I'm more familiar with the Carmelites but I'd like to learn more about the Poor Clares.

[faithcecelia]

Carmelites are hermits in community, Poor Clares are a community. Thats, for me the biggest difference. Carmelites tend to work alone, pray alone, walk alone, and are constitutionally required to retreat to their cell if they are not needed to be elsewhere, whereas Poor Clares are more likely to work together, pray together (more litanies and vocal prayers) and are not usually permitted to return to their cells except at certain times of the day.

It varies form community to community, but Poor Clares do not always get the 2hrs of private prayer that Carmelites do. As mentioned above, they do pray far moew litanies than Carmelites and from my brief visits they also pray for benefactors in a way Carmelites don't (except in a very general sense). Poor Clares tend to have more Adoration, whereas Carmelites focus on their start black crosses and choose to put themselves there with Christ.

[JenDeMaria]

[quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1311982998' post='2278326']
Carmelites are hermits in community, Poor Clares are a community. [/quote]

Oooh, that's a good point and nicely put, too. Thank you.

[quote] Thats, for me the biggest difference. Carmelites tend to work alone, pray alone, walk alone, and are constitutionally required to retreat to their cell if they are not needed to be elsewhere, whereas Poor Clares are more likely to work together, pray together (more litanies and vocal prayers) and are not usually permitted to return to their cells except at certain times of the day.

It varies form community to community, but Poor Clares do not always get the 2hrs of private prayer that Carmelites do. As mentioned above, they do pray far moew litanies than Carmelites and from my brief visits they also pray for benefactors in a way Carmelites don't (except in a very general sense). Poor Clares tend to have more Adoration, whereas Carmelites focus on their start black crosses and choose to put themselves there with Christ.
[/quote]

Do you know, do Poor Clares have the some focus on meditation/ mental prayer? Is this what you mean by private prayer? Do Poor Clares observe silence in the same way?

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='JenDeMaria' timestamp='1311983278' post='2278327']

Oooh, that's a good point and nicely put, too. Thank you.



Do you know, do Poor Clares have the some focus on meditation/ mental prayer? Is this what you mean by private prayer? Do Poor Clares observe silence in the same way?
[/quote]

The 2 Poor Clare communities I visited took half an hour meditation/private prayer together before the Blessed Sacrament and had to fit in another hour/2 lots of half an hour during the day. In Carmel the 2 hours of private prayer are sacrosanct(sp). While the sisters pray completely alone and (in most cases) may choose where they take their prayertime, there is the silent support of knowing that the whole community is united in personal prayer, and the physically still quiet of the house aids this too.

Poor Clares and Carmelites do not speak during the day unless speech is necessary. Both allow speech when it will be beneficial - ie to comfort a distressed sister or to support an infirm sister who may well not have the interaction the others do during the day, even though that interaction may well be in silence.

[MargaretTeresa]

You also have to think about how the different types of the order vary... Discalced vs Calced Carmelite and Poor Clare vs Poor Clare Colettine vs Poor Clare of Perpetual Adoration and etc. From my contact with PCCs, I know they have contemplative prayer. I don't know how much really though.

Also, a lot of, if not all, Poor Clare communities have Perpetual Adoration. And they pray the late night office (can't remember what it's called at the moment... brain faart). I once was told this was prayed especially for those out sinning in the world late at night... The dark of the day calls upon the dark deeds of life... something like that...

[Yaatee]

Both orders are quite penitential. How much sleep and food can you do without? Wear a wool habit year 'round without a lot of A/C?

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='Yaatee' timestamp='1311984162' post='2278334']
Both orders are quite penitential. How much sleep and food can you do without? Wear a wool habit year 'round without a lot of A/C?
[/quote]
This varies dramatically from community to community but I have never known anyone go hungry in any of the communities I have had contact with - the food may be basic with no choice, but it is adequate. Carmelites are allowed around 7hrs sleep a night constitutionally and most have a siesta too. This was my purgatory on earth as I only need 4-5hrs max!

Not all have wool habits either, though I wish we had as they are far cooler than polyester!

[JenDeMaria]

[quote name='MargaretTeresa' timestamp='1311983960' post='2278332']
You also have to think about how the different types of the order vary... Discalced vs Calced Carmelite and Poor Clare vs Poor Clare Colettine vs Poor Clare of Perpetual Adoration and etc. From my contact with PCCs, I know they have contemplative prayer. I don't know how much really though.

Also, a lot of, if not all, Poor Clare communities have Perpetual Adoration. And they pray the late night office (can't remember what it's called at the moment... brain faart). I once was told this was prayed especially for those out sinning in the world late at night... The dark of the day calls upon the dark deeds of life... something like that...
[/quote]

Do you mean The Office of Readings? The office formerly known as Matins?

I didn't even think to distinguish, thanks for the pointer! -- I suppose I'm trying to contrast/ compare Discalced Carmelites with Poor Clares of Perpetual Adoration, though information on any Poor Clares is welcome -- I find it fascinating!

[quote name='Yaatee' timestamp='1311984162' post='2278334']
Both orders are quite penitential. How much sleep and food can you do without? Wear a wool habit year 'round without a lot of A/C?
[/quote]

Yah!! Discalced Carmelites also traditionally pray kneeling directly on the floor without a kneeler. I'm pretty sure PCPAs do not do that. What else...

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='JenDeMaria' timestamp='1311984548' post='2278337']


Yah!! Discalced Carmelites also traditionally pray kneeling directly on the floor without a kneeler. I'm pretty sure PCPAs do not do that. What else...
[/quote]


Again, I have never come across this so please don't base any decisions on it until you start contacting communitues. At Q we had the choice of wooden prayer stools, [i]palisses [/i]which were my first choice and are wooden boxes and you kneel with one leg either side, or standard stools for those who prayed outside.

[JenDeMaria]

[quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1311984860' post='2278340']


Again, I have never come across this so please don't base any decisions on it until you start contacting communitues. At Q we had the choice of wooden prayer stools, [i]palisses [/i]which were my first choice and are wooden boxes and you kneel with one leg either side, or standard stools for those who prayed outside.
[/quote]

Of course! I was basing this on the practice of the Carmel in Port Tabacco. I could have sworn the Carmelites at Nottingham in No Greater Love were also kneeling on the floor, but then, perhaps I did not see the prayer stools under their habits... I'd have to wach the documentary again.

Oh! And St. Teresa of the Andes makes a point of this in her journal while she was preparing for Carmel. In her Carmel, only the novices used chairs outside the refectory.

Either way, you're absolutely right that different communities doe have different customs.

[JenDeMaria]

Faithcecilia, since you discerned with both communities, what made you decide on Carmel over the Poor Clares? Did you have a preferrence for the focus on hermitage in Carmel? More prayer?

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='JenDeMaria' timestamp='1311985222' post='2278344']

Of course! I was basing this on the practice of the Carmel in Port Tabacco. I could have sworn the Carmelites at Nottingham in No Greater Love were also kneeling on the floor, but then, perhaps I did not see the prayer stools under their habits... I'd have to wach the documentary again.

Oh! And St. Teresa of the Andes makes a point of this in her journal while she was preparing for Carmel. In her Carmel, only the novices used chairs outside the refectory.

Either way, you're absolutely right that different communities doe have different customs.
[/quote]


I am currently discerning with Notting Hill and yes, they do use prayer stools. They even kneel for Mass which I adore!

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='JenDeMaria' timestamp='1311985456' post='2278345']
Faithcecilia, since you discerned with both communities, what made you decide on Carmel over the Poor Clares? Did you have a preferrence for the focus on hermitage in Carmel? More prayer?
[/quote]

When I chose to enter Quidenham Carmel over Arundel Poor Clares I couldn't really have told you why, only that Q felt 'right'. Now, having spent 18mths in Carmel, when I visited another Poor Clares community the differences could have been flashing neon lights! The lack of silent prayer, at the same time each day with the whole community praying at the same time was a trial for me, and the litanies and rosaries made me restless and 'twitchy' - to me they were taking up my silence time!

That said, I absolutely loved the community and did seriously consider entering there. They were willing to accept me at my weakest and nurse me through, which Quidenham would not do (I had been told I could return to Q, just 'not yet, not yet' after 18mths of that I chose to call off the discernment with them and look at other Carmels). We were about to set my entry date and I had to write and say I was sorry, but I just knew I was called to Carmel and could not enter the Poor Clares however much I loved the sisters and felt they loved me.

My 'Notting Hill' thread tells whats going on now in detail so I won't take over your thread!

[OnlySunshine]

When I was discerning between the Franciscans and Carmelites, the biggest difference I noticed was the interaction within the community. Carmelites are really into silence, mental prayer, and contemplation, which was a little too much for me. I realized I wouldn't be able to tolerate long periods of no talking. I do like having some silence and I do retreat to my bedroom whenever possible, so that was a plus for me. I liked that Franciscans shared a meal together. I don't know if it is the same amongst Poor Clares, but the Franciscan Sisters of the Renewal, who are very contemplative, used the meal time as recreation. The Superior pointed out that it was family time, which I loved. I think it's important for families--real and adopted--to interact and become bonded at meals. I wish we had more of that here at home.

I have never visited a monastery before, so my thoughts may be a little off. I have only dealt with active/contemplative communities in person and interacted with monastery Prioresses over the phone, mail, and email.

[truthfinder]

[quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1311985793' post='2278346']


They even kneel for Mass which I adore!
[/quote]

Not to sound dense, but what do you mean by this? We are all supposed to kneel at Mass ( I don't know what your local parish or bishop has mandated, however.) Is this something particular to this community? Thanks