The Trinity

[Theologian in Training]

Given the extensive conversations that seem to be brewing about the Trinity, I wanted to offer some of my own reflections, as well as a few discussions I have gotten into with regard to the Trinity.

God Bless

[b]Trinity[/b]

Now, with regard to your answer, I definitely agree. However, and I realize the danger in simple answers to complex questions, especially in light of the Trinity, but wouldn't an inference to the growth of knowledge in Jesus as man be treading on dangerous ground? We know the attributes of God, and we know that one of those attributes is omniscience. Now, if God is all-knowing, and Christ, human and divine, is God, then wouldn't it follow that Christ, though taking on human form, never lost that omniscience? For, if we deny that omniscience to Him, even in part, doesen't that infer something lesser, and thereby something imperfect, which is, incidentally, another attribute of God? For, even the Athanasian Creed says, "neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the substance." Further, the same creed asserts, "He is perfect God; and He is perfect man, with a rational soul and human flesh." Also, which is key to this whole debate, "And He is one, not because His divinity was [b]changed[/b] into flesh, but because His humanity was [b]assumed[/b] unto God."

[Theologian in Training]

First of all, from a philosophical point of view an assessment would be quite limited, because human reason is limited. On the other hand, a point of view based on both theology and philosophy would open that limitation and make it transcend, as it were, everyday knowledge. In other words, Theology is the fulfillment of philosophy, or as a very holy priest has said, bad philosophy begets bad theology. The two work together as building blocks, and to contemplate theological questions within the scope of philosophical limitations might not bring you to the fullness of truth. After all, "the truth shall set you free."

That being said, we do indeed all have the desire for truth, or the "something more" that everyone calls it now. However, this too is limiting and trying to make an objective reality subjective. In other words, trying to minimalize God as "something more" because they haven't come to the recognition, or don't want to accept the recognition, that that "something more" is, and always will be, God. Gaudium et Spes (19) attests to this, "The root reason for human dignity lies in man's call to communion with God. From the very circumstance of his origin man is already invited to converse with God. For man would not exist were he not created by Gods love and constantly preserved by it; and he cannot live fully according to truth unless he freely acknowledges that love and devotes himself to His Creator. Still, many of our contemporaries have never recognized this intimate and vital link with God, or have explicitly rejected it. Thus atheism must be accounted among the most serious problems of this age, and is deserving of closer examination." Therefore, from the very beginning our desire for God has been "written on our hearts." However, even as GS asserts when we fail to recognize that desire for the truth, we ski on a very slipperly slope which might ultimately lead to atheism.

As to the "true truth" Christ Himself asserted this to be the case 2000 years ago when He said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me." Of course, even back then truth wasn't completely understood, "Pilate said to him, "What is truth?" After he had said this, he went out to the Jews again, and told them, "I find no crime in him." Pilate, like many today, failed to recognize the "way, the truth, and the life."

That being said, we are all searching for the truth, but, as St. Paul has said, "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood." So, though the truth has come, though we know objective truth, it is the convincing of ourselves to believe that truth that becomes both the issue and the problem. This is where the danger occurs and people start seeing truth as a subjective reality as opposed to an objective fact.

Your main concern is with other religions and some other forms of truth. Why can't Hindus or Buddhists say that theirs is the "true truth?" Well, on a cursory level, we can ask whether or not their gods ever promised to lay down their life for them. Further, whether that laying down of their life, if they ever promised such a thing, would redeem all of mankind. Also, we might take into account something a classmate brought up in one of my classes, if sin came through man and that man brought sin into the world, original sin, then how is man reconciled to God once again? Wouldn't it have to be a person who was both man and God that was united in such a way as to be both fully man and God? In a sense, that reconciliation being the incarnation and the redemption His total anhiliation of death through His own death? Buddha was only man and not God, Shiva, Brahma, and Vishnu, to my understanding, were a triad of deities, only gods, never man. Therefore, how could reconcile man to God?

The truth then, is God-made-man, one of the Persons of the Trinity. Our attainment is to that truth, which only comes through The Truth. Therefore, we are in a constant state of longing, ever trying to get closer, but never able to reach our final goal as merely man. As Augustine has said, "our hearts are restless, until they rest in You." Our hearts is where that longing for God is written, and if someone were to examine the heart of one longing for the "true truth," God Himself, then I should hope that they would find within that person a glimmering of the truth. Remember, St. Paul again, "we see dimly."

I realize I may not have answered your questions to your contentment, but I too am in search of the truth, ever longing, and ever restless. Philosophy can only take us so far, theology too, if it is devoid of faith. Your starting premise might be the theological virtues, faith, hope, and love, and from there move into the philosophy and theology. I am not saying you yourself, but anyone who wishes to plumb the depths of these great mysteries which is only understood in light of our reliance on God alone.

[Theologian in Training]

Hello,
[b]You (Mona) said:[/b] "If God himself cannot explain himself, I don't know what to make of this freak'n mystery. I think I'm gonna look for something else that makes more sense..."

[b]My response:[/b] God can explain Himself, it is just that OUR minds are limited, we have finite knowledge, God's is eternal. Our minds cannot grasp this mystery, not because God has not revealed it, but because our minds are limited. Even in Heaven the Saints do not understand every mystery. Why? because God is being selfish? No, because God is eternal, we have been born in time and, therefore, have the "mark" of limitation by that very aspect (being born in time). If we were eternal and understood all mysteries we would be equal or greater than God, but how can someone who has been created by God be greater or equal to He who created him? It is logically impossible.

You say you want to find something that makes more sense. In other words you need to rationalize your whole life? If so, no religion will satiate your desire, how could it, since all religions and philosophies point, in some way, to a transcendent nature which is wrought in mystery. As I explained before I introduced the Trinity, Catholicism is founded upon revelation and faith. God reveals Himself to us and our response is our faith; ie: the full submission of our INTELLECT and WILL. In other words, understanding most things, but open to the fact that we cannot understand everything. As I said, we would be like gods if we knew all.

I sense that this is bothering you, which is good, it means you are trying to understand, but don't let that pursuit in trying to understand decieve you into believing that all can be understood. We must have faith, we must believe that there is a God above, not because we understand and have seen Him as such, but because we have the faith to know.
God Bless You, you are in my prayers

Now your response to me was "You admit that a person created by God cannot be equal to God right? Then if Jesus is son of God, he has been created by God right? Then Jesus cannot be God according to you."

Yes, I admit that a person [i]created[/i] by God cannot be equal to God. However, Jesus was not created by God-the-Father but begotten by God-the-Father, which is clearly made evident in the creed Catholics recite every Sunday during Mass. "Begotten, not made, one in being with the Father, through Him all things were made." [b]Begotten, not made,[/b] which clearly says Jesus was not "made" but Begotten of the Father, the difference is laid out intentionally to draw that distinction. Even further, "one in being with the Father." In other words, sharing the same substance as the Father, the same divine nature, but still a distinct person of the Trinity.

The reason, and rightly so, you are having such difficulty is because you are trying to think in temporal terms, weighing everything that happens as though it happens in time. God is beyond time, God is eternal, this happened in eternity, not in time. There is nothing on earth that we can use as an analogy to explain how Christ was begotten of the Father, nor how fast it happened, (see even fast is a temporal term) nor when it happened (again a temporal term.) Everything on earth is subjected to time, everything is temporal on earth. I specify "on earth" so you don't accuse me of telling you that EVERYTHING is temporal, if that were the case than you could rightly argue (with me) that the soul is temporal as well. As an aside, I am beginning to see what some of the philosophers and mystics spoke of when saying that our
language is limited.

The fundamental question, it seems, you want answered, is how can we understand the Trinity from a purely rational perspective? In other words, you want me or someone else to explain eternity and what goes on there while I and they live in time? Are you starting to see the difficulty in rationally explaining the Trinity, and what human limitation we work with? You have to accept that we, as human beings, born in time, are limited, we cannot pretend to be all- knowing, it is impossible. This is reason that the Trinity is such a mystery, not because we are trying to cop out saying, "oh, it's a mystery." No, it actually is a mystery, it eludes the understanding. Granted, some things can be known through divine revelation, but that is a topic better suited as a new thread for the forum.

I think you might find some more insight into the idea of mystery and why the Church declares it as such by following this [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm"]link[/url] It will answer a lot of your questions better than my own limited mind can

God Bless and you remain in my prayers.

Glory to the Father, to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.

[Theologian in Training]

First and foremost, follow this [url="http://www.creeds.net/ancient/Quicumque.html"]link[/url] I had posted it before, but it is definitely worth another look. Besides, it was written by a Saint, and what the Catholic Church used to profess "back in the day."

The Trinity is a mystery, however, it is not wrong to question what the Trinity is. The reason it is such a mystery for us, is because it is hard for us to understand the depth of this mystery with our finite knowledge. This is the case with many mysteries of the Catholic Church, if an onlooker were to come to Mass for the first time, hearing the words, "This is my body" uttered by a priest, he would be quite confused without even a cursory knowledge of transubstantiation. Our belief is founded, as Dei Verbum reminds, on Revelation and Faith, without revelation we have nothing to "assent" to, without faith revelation becomes divorced.

All of that said, the Trinity is God in three persons, Father, Son, and Spirit. They are three distinct persons, yet one in divine nature. However, "the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Father is not the Holy Spirit." (Baltimore Catechism) If the Father is eternal so too is the Son and Holy Spirit, yet they are still one God. I really cannot say much more than that, but if it is any consolation the first time I learned of the Trinity, it took me a lot of prayer, faith, and many hours to let it all sink in. I imagine the same may be required of you.

God Bless and Glory to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Amen.

[phatcatholic]

its amazing that this tract never got any props

GOOD JOB THEOLOGIAN!!!

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Aug 19 2004, 07:18 PM'] its amazing that this tract never got any props

GOOD JOB THEOLOGIAN!!! [/quote]
Thank you. Looking back at it now, it is evident how the Holy Spirit really helped me in trying to lay out the mystery of the Trinity in understandable terms.

God Bless

[MorphRC]

I agree with Phat. Im surprised this didnt have props.

Great work

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='MorphRC' date='Aug 26 2004, 02:19 PM'] I agree with Phat. Im surprised this didnt have props.

Great work [/quote]
Thank you

[Fiat_Voluntas_Tua]

Mad Props...It is wicked Sweet!

-UIOGD-

Andy

[Scofizzle]

I will also offer props.......to theo the great

[Theologian in Training]

Thank you

[franciscanheart]

that was awesome....
it usually takes me a while to read all the way through these because i cant focus but that one really sucked me in!! Good job!!