Jesus & The Bible

[bookofjohn]

Hi Lumberjack

Been noticing your posts lately and I would like to help you understand a little more on Catholicism. May I have an inter-religious dialogue with you?

Peace,

Bookofjohn <><

p/s: Blessed Birthday!

Edited April 27, 2004 by bookofjohn

[the lumberjack]

I can't say that I know too much about the Roman Catholic Church...but I'll try to show you what I've learned from my short stay here.

God bless.

[bookofjohn]

Cool

Q1: Did Jesus use the same scriptures as the Pharisees or the Sadducess?

[the lumberjack]

When Christ spoke to an expert in religious law who asked him What must I do to receive eternal life? Jesus replied with the counter-question What does the law of Moses say? How do you read it?. The expert himself answered by quoting from the Scriptures, for which Jesus commended him, and, in reply to his further question told the story we know as the Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37).

When Christ spoke to the Pharisees and teachers of religious law, who challenged him about his disciples' failure to observe the ancient, but unscriptural custom of washing their hands before eating, Jesus replied that they had put their own laws in the place of God's law (Mark 7:1-13). Jesus then went on to teach the crowd a pointed lesson about the real nature of religious purity and pollution (Mark 7:14-23).

And to the Sadducees, who did not believe in the resurrection, Jesus replied, in answer to their test question about a woman who had married seven times, that the root of their difficulty lay in their ignorance of the Scriptures and the power of God (Mark 12:18-27).

so, while I've never fully bothered to contemplate your question, I would have to say yes...Christ always quoted to the Saducees and Pharisees from the Law and other sacred writings, which the Saducees and Pharisees recognized thru every trap they set for Him...to their shame.

though I really don't know what this would have to do with Catholocism...

God bless.

[bookofjohn]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 28 2004, 01:21 AM']When Christ spoke to an expert in religious law who asked him What must I do to receive eternal life? Jesus replied with the counter-question What does the law of Moses say? How do you read it?. The expert himself answered by quoting from the Scriptures, for which Jesus commended him, and, in reply to his further question told the story we know as the Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37).

When Christ spoke to the Pharisees and teachers of religious law, who challenged him about his disciples' failure to observe the ancient, but unscriptural custom of washing their hands before eating, Jesus replied that they had put their own laws in the place of God's law (Mark 7:1-13). Jesus then went on to teach the crowd a pointed lesson about the real nature of religious purity and pollution (Mark 7:14-23).

And to the Sadducees, who did not believe in the resurrection, Jesus replied, in answer to their test question about a woman who had married seven times, that the root of their difficulty lay in their ignorance of the Scriptures and the power of God (Mark 12:18-27).

so, while I've never fully bothered to contemplate your question, I would have to say yes...Christ always quoted to the Saducees and Pharisees from the Law and other sacred writings, which the Saducees and Pharisees recognized thru every trap they set for Him...to their shame.

though I really don't know what this would have to do with Catholocism...

God bless.[/quote]
I totally agree with you

As we can see while Christ uses the same Scriptures His interpretation was a whole lot [b]different[/b] than the Pharisees or the Sadducees.

Q2: On what grounds does Christ stand to say His interpretation of the Scriptures was correct, while the interpretation of the Pharisees & Sadducess was wrong?

[the lumberjack]

Christ's "interpretation" of the Scriptures wasn't "different"...thats what Scrioture was supposed to have meant.

But men being men, they perverted it to turn into some kind of legalistic, ritualistic religion.

the grounds Christ had to say that MAN's interpretation of Scripture is wrong is because He is God...and being God, He knows exactly what Scripture says and what it should have meant, NOT what MAN turned it into.

God bless.

[bookofjohn]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 28 2004, 12:41 PM']Christ's "interpretation" of the Scriptures wasn't "different"...thats what Scrioture was supposed to have meant.

But men being men, they perverted it to turn into some kind of legalistic, ritualistic religion.

the grounds Christ had to say that MAN's interpretation of Scripture is wrong is because He is God...and being God, He knows exactly what Scripture says and what it should have meant, NOT what MAN turned it into.

God bless.[/quote]
OK. There's no need to get defensive here. Please take your time to read my posting ya? Cos I notice that you answer the question in a hurry. Don't worry I am not here to attack.

I was just pointing out that Christ gave a different interpretation as [b]compared[/b] to the Pharisees & Sadducees.

That being said.

Yes, you are absolutely right. Christ being God knew exactly what the Scriptures was suppose to mean.

And from your reply you also implicitly say that Christ stood on the grounds of: [b]Authoriy[/b]. On His authority as God.

---

Now that you know this. Christ is God. And being God He knew ALL things, which means He anticipated too ALL things that's going to happen in the future. This includes [b]the confusion in the interpretation of Scriptures[/b]. That is why He built His Church upon the Rock (Cephas) a.k.a. Peter [url="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Matthew+16%3A13-20"](Matthew 16:13-20)[/url] and Christ further said that this Church that He built will [b]stand[/b].

And one of the reasons Christ establish His Church here on earth is to be the pillar and foundation of truth [url="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1TIM%2B3%3A15&showfn=on&showxref=on&language=english&version=NKJV&x=22&y=7"]1 (Tim 3:15)[/url], so that there will be no confusion in the interpretation of Scriptures.

Christ anticipated it all. And this Church: the Roman Catholic Church is THE pillar & foundation of truth, Scripture is talking about.

[the lumberjack]

[quote]Jesus at once recognized Simon, and declared that hereafter he would be called Cephas, an Aramaic name corresponding to the Greek Petros, which means "a mass of rock detached from the living rock." The Aramaic name does not occur again, but the name Peter gradually displaces the old name Simon, though our Lord himself always uses the name Simon when addressing him ( Mat 17:25; Mar 14:37; Luk 22:31, comp. 21:15-17).[/quote]

this is part of Peter's biography, and the definition of His name. you see that?

"a mass of rock" not, "a rock" ...more like "a pile of rock" or, maybe "a boulder" but not "ROCK" as in "Christ is the chief cornerstone" or "the Rock of my salvation"

petros, not petras

[url="http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/choice/1083152840-4253.html"]who was peter[/url]? this link might help.

as well as this comparison from deusvitae.com

[quote]When we examine this text in the Greek, we see that there are two different variations on the word for "rock." The words used are petros and petra; petros refers to Peter (since it is the masculine form), and is defined as "a pebble, a small stone." Petra is the neuter form of the word, and denotes "a large rock, boulder." Therefore, when Christ refers to Peter and to the rock, He is referring to two different objects! Christ's church is built on the rock [petra] that is Peter's confession, that He is the Christ, the Son of God, while Peter is a pebble [petros] in comparison.[/quote]

I'm not trying to fight either...

God bless.

[bookofjohn]

Of course I do not mean that the term "rock" for Peter & Jesus are equal.

But please, let's not deviate.

My point is:

The Church in 1Tim3:15 refers to the Catholic Church which IS the Pillar & Foundation of truth.

Peace <><

Edited April 28, 2004 by bookofjohn

[bookofjohn]

Dear Lumberjack,

I would like to encourage you to pray about what's truth & how to distinguish truths from false teachings. The point of this thread is not to have a debate on Catholicism VS Protestantism, rather it is for you to discern prayerfully & unbiasly on the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Prayers & Love. <><

[the lumberjack]

I was in no way implying that petros and the petra which Jesus was refering to were in any way equal.

but as you see:

When we examine this text in the Greek, we see that there are two different variations on the word for "rock." The words used are petros and petra; petros refers to Peter (since it is the masculine form), and is defined as "a pebble, a small stone."

Petra is the neuter form of the word, and denotes "a large rock, boulder."

Therefore, when Christ refers to Peter and to the rock, He is referring to two different objects! Christ's church is built on the rock [petra] that is Peter's confession, that He is the Christ, the Son of God, while Peter is a pebble [petros] in comparison.

I'm not bias for Catholic or Protestant...just the truth which is in the Word of God. if you call me Protestant because I do not fall in line with the traditions, teachings and tediousness of the Catholic Church, I'm sorry.

I am constantly praying, and in turn, I'm praying for you and the rest of the wonderful people here on phatmass.

God bless.

Christ first.