Jesus_lol Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1311486790' post='2274766'] Many right wing bloggers are really a bunch of leftist nimrods who have some vestigial christianity regarding which hoo-hoos are compatible. The problem is that someone who talks about Jesus and then views the State as a means of favoring the groups he likes is labeled "right wing" when in fact he is a leftist that wants to control people in the name of Jesus rather than in the name of (insert indisputable leftist icon that will not arouse dispute). I do think domestic terrorists in authoritarian cultures will possibly be of the individual liberty bent, but right now it looks like he's some weirdo christian maniac person who also opposes immigration (left wing). [/quote] the problem with melting it down to the most basic "leftist like government in everything" and "right-ists like government in nothing", aside from being over simplified and untrue, is that those labels do not really apply to the political landscape in most countries, especially not the USA. the Conservative, Republican, GOP, Tea Party, etc "right wing" of the USA has matching views as the oslo shooter in many important areas, making him for all intents and purposes "right wing". modern(and not so modern) Conservative thinking includes stuff like being anti immigration, racist policies, anti muslim etc etc. Edited July 24, 2011 by Jesus_lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1311486806' post='2274767'] oh, okay...sorry, i got confused since you quoted her, nevermind me....i'm a little [/quote] no problem, my post was badly laid out. i put in an edit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 I'm not saying that this is applicable to the Norway tragedy, but it seems appropriate to this thread at least. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_politics"]Right-wing politics[/url] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_terrorism"]Right-wing terrorism[/url] I think the term should be 'neo-fascist terrorism' instead of right-wing terrorism. No? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1311487095' post='2274770'] the problem with melting it down to the most basic "leftist like government in everything" and "right-ists like government in nothing", aside from being over simplified and untrue, is that those labels do not really apply to the political landscape in most countries, especially not the USA. the Conservative, Republican, GOP, Tea Party, etc "right wing" of the USA has matching views as the oslo shooter in many important areas, making him for all intents and purposes "right wing". modern(and not so modern) Conservative thinking includes stuff like being anti immigration, racist policies, anti muslim etc etc. [/quote] It exists along a spectrum and people are quite capable of favoring leftism or right wing ideology in different aspects of society. I avoided "conservative" as a term for a reason: it is not a synonym for "right wing". Many American conservatives are devoted to left wing ideals. Even their idea of free market falls firmly on the left side, with subsidies and catering to special interests in order to centrally plan economies (to a greater or lesser extent). This guy might be a social conservative. That does not mean he believes in individual liberty and limited government. His politics might be left wing while his social policies are conservative. Yes, lots of self-identified right wingers are anti-immigrant. Lots of self-identified leftists claim to believe in private property. People are capable of holding contradictory beliefs. Lots of American lefties reject strict immigration laws. They do this because they're told to by the people who maintain power through reducing government influence in this one area. FDR controlled immigration because it is part and parcel of central planning--which is Leftist. This guy might reject central planning. He might be an anarchist (or think he is), but nationalism is leftist. Anti-immigration is leftist. Anarchism is the extreme right--you might find an anarchist who has nationalist tendencies but that would be a flaw. In all likelihood, this is another Leftist with delusions about attaining liberty through a bureaucracy that uses Christian terms to justify running everyone's lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1311487861' post='2274779'] I'm not saying that this is applicable to the Norway tragedy, but it seems appropriate to this thread at least. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_politics"]Right-wing politics[/url] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_terrorism"]Right-wing terrorism[/url] I think the term should be 'neo-fascist terrorism' instead of right-wing terrorism. No? [/quote] The problem is the desire to distance National Socialism from leftism has led people to describe fascism (which involves strong authoritarian power and centralized government) as right wing. It's delusional. I would argue that nationalism, which puts an arbitrary collective above the individual is by its very nature leftist. I would argue that, perversely, a singular dedication to anarchy could lead one to establish a leftist government. In fact, at some point, radical individualism could lead to an authoritarian leftist regime. A sort of commitment to one's own liberty at the expense of others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 An acquaintance of mine just published a provocative blog post. [url="http://caelumetterra.wordpress.com/2011/07/24/dark-irony/"]Dark Irony[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePenciledOne Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1311509476' post='2274831'] An acquaintance of mine just published a provocative blog post. [url="http://caelumetterra.wordpress.com/2011/07/24/dark-irony/"]Dark Irony[/url] [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1311459733' post='2274510'] "Leftism" and "liberal" aren't really synonymous. Nazis were leftists, but certainly not socially liberal. The terms have become a bit confused, anyway. It used to be liberals were concerned with personal liberties protected by a small government that didn't play favorites and was not profligate in spending and taxation. [/quote] Nazis were not leftists. Communists are leftists. Fascism is a right wing ideology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 To be honest, when I first heard about the bombing, I also assumed Muslim because of the cartoon issue. The day of the OKC bombing it was also assume originally that it had to be a Muslim extremist. Anyone who looked vaguely middle-eastern was pulled out of line at the airport and seriously searched. My Godparents' youngest son was pulled out of his car. My Godmother was Mexican, and my Godfather was Spanish, so their son had skin the color of a typical Mexican, but he could grow a pretty good beard. He looked middle-eastern, and some rednecks pulled him out of his car at a stop sign. He started screaming that he was just a "wet-back" and they finally let him go. When they announced that the guy was Norwegian, my first thought was wondering if he had a mental illness, because if he did, my husband will get calls for comment by the local media. We don't think about people there being terrorists. On the other hand, European countries are going through demographic changes they probably haven't seen in a couple of thousand years. In North America we are used to immigration. If Europe isn't going to have enough children to replace their population, they are going to face having a bunch of foreigners descending on them. People don't like change. Between immigration, and financial troubles, we may see more of this in Europe in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1311490033' post='2274786'] The problem is the desire to distance National Socialism from leftism has led people to describe fascism (which involves strong authoritarian power and centralized government) as right wing. It's delusional. I would argue that nationalism, which puts an arbitrary collective above the individual is by its very nature leftist. I would argue that, perversely, a singular dedication to anarchy could lead one to establish a leftist government. In fact, at some point, radical individualism could lead to an authoritarian leftist regime. A sort of commitment to one's own liberty at the expense of others. [/quote] Extreme Libertarianism is not a right wing-ideology. You're trying to somehow suggest that Fascism is not right wing because it is obviously incompatible with libertarianism or anarch-capitalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1311560318' post='2275251'] Nazis were not leftists. Communists are leftists. Fascism is a right wing ideology. [/quote] see this. I think this helps explain what seems to be the confusion here. [url="http://www.politicalcompass.org/"]The Political Compass[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1311560599' post='2275254'] see this. I think this helps explain what seems to be the confusion here. [url="http://www.politicalcompass.org/"]The Political Compass[/url] [/quote] Lately some on the right (that's not a reference to Winchester) have been trying to claim that the socialist part of national socialism means that they were really some sort of leftists. That's to confuse the European political spectrum with the American one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1311560318' post='2275251'] Nazis were not leftists. Communists are leftists. Fascism is a right wing ideology. [/quote] I was thinking about this tonight and really, it would be better to avoid either left or right wing and discuss it in other terms that are more concrete. I was thinking authoritarian on one end and anarchism on the other, but I'm not sure that would work all that well. Especially when you told some Palinite they were firmly on the authoritarian side. And how would you deal with fascism's cooperation with private corporate entities (which clearly isn't approaching anarchy). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 [quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1311560394' post='2275252'] To be honest, when I first heard about the bombing, I also assumed Muslim because of the cartoon issue. The day of the OKC bombing it was also assume originally that it had to be a Muslim extremist. Anyone who looked vaguely middle-eastern was pulled out of line at the airport and seriously searched. My Godparents' youngest son was pulled out of his car. My Godmother was Mexican, and my Godfather was Spanish, so their son had skin the color of a typical Mexican, but he could grow a pretty good beard. He looked middle-eastern, and some rednecks pulled him out of his car at a stop sign. He started screaming that he was just a "wet-back" and they finally let him go. When they announced that the guy was Norwegian, my first thought was wondering if he had a mental illness, because if he did, my husband will get calls for comment by the local media. We don't think about people there being terrorists. On the other hand, European countries are going through demographic changes they probably haven't seen in a couple of thousand years. In North America we are used to immigration. If Europe isn't going to have enough children to replace their population, they are going to face having a bunch of foreigners descending on them. People don't like change. Between immigration, and financial troubles, we may see more of this in Europe in the future. [/quote] Up until recently, when work and school have limited the amount of sun-tanning that I could engage in, I would always get pulled out of line at the airport for the "random checks." I have a pretty full beard, and, as I said, I used to be fairly dark-skinned (mama's Italian side gave me that olive skin). I never had a problem with it, with my attitude being that people who looked vaguely like me have been attacking civilians in airports, train stations and other public places. Are they the only people committing acts of violence? No, of course not. But they are the current (mis)conception of what a "terrorist" looks like, and so we all respond to it. Conversely, when I was about 8 (after the OKC bombing), and saw my dad's first passport, my reaction was "Dad, you look like a terrorist!" He had long shaggy red hair, and a very long shaggy beard. It all changes over time. And you're right--the European immigration issue is absolutely at work here. But you've got to remember--their major immigrant group right now are Muslims from the Arab peninsula, coming in large numbers into the cities and towns throughout Europe. This phenomena has been occurring for decades, but has reached a critical mass in recent years. What you have to understand is that these Muslims are analogous to the Mexicans and other Latin American immigrants that we have in this country. And the ascending of xenophobic beliefs and fears by Europeans must be looked at in this context. Thus, Islamic terrorism is even scarier for them, because it is coming from a growing population [i]within[/i]. It'd be like if all of a sudden Latin American immigrants in this country decided to declare war on us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hilde Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 (edited) Right wing extremism, here, is a fringe extremist right wing thing and usually means something to do with nationalism. This attack, as far as I have heard, was done to halt recruitment to the labor party(obv left wing) who has also been the governing party for quite a while( and therefore to blame for the "multiculturalsim", that he so despises). He was a member of the most blue party, Fremskrittspartiet, akin to the republicans, but of course he is extreme in his views and actions and does not represent this party in any way. When the word is used it usually gives connotations such as nazism, racism or nationalism which are more "exact" words. Edited July 25, 2011 by Hilde Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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