Homosexuality

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1312243898' post='2280024']

why dont you go tell that to jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)? he holds the same position as I do, or do you just feel more comfortable attacking non catholics?



and if that is meant as an insult, then that is truly pathetic. telling a non catholic that they disagree with the catechism is not only a simple truth (like "hah! you are a girl, burn!"), in most cases they would consider it a compliment.
[/quote]

Two questions:

It's getting hard for me to keep up. What is it that you and jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) agree about?

Also, why would a non-Catholic be interested in hanging out at PM? Don't take this the wrong way, I actually quite respect you for doing what you believe is right, and for toughing it out despite everyone here taking the opposite side (well, not everyone). In fact, if you left I would miss you. But I guess I just don't understand why you are here. I'm sure you've explained it a number of times, so please be patient with me.

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1312311329' post='2280392']

Two questions:

It's getting hard for me to keep up. What is it that you and jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) agree about?

[/quote]

I'm pretty sure it's that sodomy is a sin that cries out to heaven even when it's heterosexual as opposed to homosexual.

I find that I agree with them.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1312149971' post='2279351']
Kindly provide an example.

Or else shut up.
[/quote]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1280887254' post='2151806']
In the heat of battle perhaps, but before the fighting begins vile immorality should be weeded out. Sodomy is a vile and wicked sin that cries out to Heaven and clamors to God for vengeance.
[/quote]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1286818286' post='2179123']
Being Catholic means believing and following ALL of the teachings of the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church regarding faith and morals, not just those you happen to personally already agree with. It's not a "pick and choose" deal. And that includes politically incorrect teachings such as those concerning homosexuality.

Drunkenness and watching porn are sinful, same as willfully indulging in homosexual sodomy. One's drunkenness or pornography viewing may be confined to the privacy of one's home, and may not directly affect other people, yet it remains sinful, and should not be encouraged or enabled. Same with homosexual activity.

And where did I say that homosexual activity is the worst thing in the world? You can't justify one sin by bringing up worse sins. The wrongness of rape or murder does not somehow make sodomy right. For almost any sin, you can find worse sins to compare it to, but that doesn't justify any sin, or mean it's not that bad. The Church lists sodomy among the "sins that cry out to heaven for vengeance." Saint Paul twice says that sodomites shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

The Church does indeed teach that it's wrong to have any sex outside of marriage, and that includes homosexual sodomy. How many people follow the Church's moral teachings on this or any other matter is irrelevant. No sinful behavior should be encouraged or condoned by Catholics.
Christ tells us to keep all His commandments if we love Him, not just those that are popular or easy to keep.

Yes, Jesus loves sinners (and that includes all of us), but He wants us to turn from sin. As Jesus told the repentant adulteress, "go and sin no more."

Civil "marriage" does indeed confer legal and financial benefits, which should not be given to perverted sexual activity which is contrary to the true purpose of marriage. If you want more explanation, please read the CDF document I linked to earlier. Catholics are obligated not to support "gay marriage" or "civil unions."
[/quote]

No need to shut up. That was two examples in like 30 seconds of research

[Socrates]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1312182212' post='2279639']

KnightOfChrist was quite fond of it. but if you actually want me to crawl through all his and other peoples thousands of posts to find you the stuff you want, you can stuff that desire somewhere uncomfortable, i have better things to do.[/quote]
Like sit around making baseless accusations?

You're the one making the accusation, not you.

Either back it up with a specific link, or issue an apology to Knight.

And yes, I've read his posts, but have yet to see him post anything defending sodomy of any sort. If he's really "quite fond of it" as you claim, finding an example shouldn't be all that difficult.

[Socrates]

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1312320268' post='2280462']





No need to shut up. That was two examples in like 30 seconds of research
[/quote]
No, you need to learn how to read a thread.

This exchange started where Jlol made the remark:

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1311773942' post='2276808']
always some garbage about how being gay is technically worse because straight sodomy could lead to marriage etc.
[/quote]
to which I responded
[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1311790518' post='2276942']
An argument I've never seen anybody make here.

But keep on knocking over dumb straw-men. Though it makes you look foolish, I hear it's great sport.
[/quote]

I have yet to see KnightofChrist or anyone else here defending "straight" sodomy for any reason.

Of, course, I have no problem with the Church's teaching that sodomy is among the five sins that cry out to heaven for vengeance.
I'm sorry if you do.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1312331386' post='2280542']



Of, course, I have no problem with the Church's teaching that sodomy is among the five sins that cry out to heaven for vengeance.
I'm sorry if you do.
[/quote]

Bait much Soc?

(It's rhetorical)

Ok before i go and prove you wrong yet one more time, why don't you just state for the record. That you believe, as I do, that the Church teaches that sodomy between two men is on the same level of sin (sins that cry to heaven) as sodomy between a man and a woman.

[mortify]

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1312335306' post='2280579']

Bait much Soc?

(It's rhetorical)

Ok before i go and prove you wrong yet one more time, why don't you just state for the record. That you believe, as I do, that the Church teaches that sodomy between two men is on the same level of sin (sins that cry to heaven) as sodomy between a man and a woman.
[/quote]

Don't see how they are equal when they are specifically distinct sins, and one is more disordered than the other. But I'll wait and see what evidence jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) brings forth to the table.

And just as an aside, it's not a grievous sin for married couples to begin coitus rectally so long as it ends naturally. The sin of sodomy is connected with pollution (i.e. wasting of semen), and therefore such coitus is not sodomy.

[Jaime]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1312337814' post='2280599']

Don't see how they are equal when they are specifically distinct sins, and one is more disordered than the other. But I'll wait and see what evidence jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) brings forth to the table.

And just as an aside, it's not a grievous sin for married couples to begin coitus rectally so long as it ends naturally. The sin of sodomy is connected with pollution (i.e. wasting of semen), and therefore such coitus is not sodomy.
[/quote]

Actually the burden of proof is on you. There is nothing in Church teaching that comes close to suggesting that anal sex is ever ok.

[Amppax]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1312150370' post='2279365']

[img]http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g470/GregoryIRice/the_big_lebowski_jesus.jpg[/img]Y
You don't fool Jesus!
[/quote]

Just watched that tonight. LOL!

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1312348666' post='2280698']

Actually the burden of proof is on you. There is nothing in Church teaching that comes close to suggesting that anal sex is ever ok.
[/quote]
Agreed.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1312330745' post='2280536']
Like sit around making baseless accusations?
[/quote]

or talk to my girlfriend, go ride my motorcycle, cook up some hamburgers, wash my hair, cut the lawn with scissors, trim my toenails, stare at the same spot on the wall as my cat for 15 minutes straight, organize my sock drawer alphabetically, lie down on a bench underneath a rockshelf and soak in the late afternoon sun next to the lake, play guitar for a little while...

but no, i generally dont make baseless accusations. When i make accusations, i am generally basing that off of a long period of observation. but i dont always keep notes and sketches of my subjects handy, because KnightofChrist(in this case) is not a red throated Cockatiel, and i am not an ornithologist.

[quote]
You're the one making the accusation, not you.
[/quote]

well, am I or aren't I?

[quote]
Either back it up with a specific link, or issue an apology to Knight.
[/quote]

well, im sorry we are talking about Knight while he isn't here, but i really dont plan on doing either of those things.

[quote]
And yes, I've read his posts, but have yet to see him post anything defending sodomy of any sort. If he's really "quite fond of it" as you claim, finding an example shouldn't be all that difficult.
[/quote]

and here is that reading comprehension thing. I never said that Knight defended sodomy of any sort. I merely mentioned it, because last time we had this discussion(not me and you, me and koc amongst others) he was asserting that homosexual sodomy was a worse sin than heterosexual fornication or sodomy, because it was a sin "that cried out to the heavens". (despite the fact that both heterosexual sodomy and homosexual sodomy are included in that whole "cried out to the heavens" thing, thus making that position very weak.
that point was ignored, and then further stuff was brought up about why homosexual sex was worse, including my aforementioned thing.

AFAIK, knight has never defended heterosexual sodomy, per se, but he has asserted that homosexual sodomy is somehow worse.

anyways, i think that is more than enough explanation and defending for what was a tagged on throwaway statement. i prefer when the body of my argument is attacked rather than relatively meaningless asides.


[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1312331386' post='2280542']
Of, course, I have no problem with the Church's teaching that sodomy is among the five sins that cry out to heaven for vengeance.
I'm sorry if you do.
[/quote]

another great weasel insult, this time at jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff). you know full well that he hasnt argued that sodomy isnt among those sins. merely that the often ignored heterosexual sodomy is included equally as well as homosexual sodomy in that list.

[mortify]

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1312348666' post='2280698']

Actually the burden of proof is on you. There is nothing in Church teaching that comes close to suggesting that anal sex is ever ok.
[/quote]

Fair enough. Here is a quote from Fr Heribert Jones, Moral Theology:
[quote] [color=#0000ff] [/color]
[color=#0000ff]Imperfect sodomy, i.e. rectal intercourse, is a grave sin when the seminal fluid is wasted.[/color]

[color=#0000ff] [/color]
[color=#0000ff]Excluding the sodomitical intention it is neither sodomy nor a grave sin if intercourse is begun in a rectal manner with the intention of consummating it naturally or if some sodomitical action is posited without danger of pollution.[/color]
[/quote]

This is from a pre-Vatican II text, and it surprised me to read it!

And btw, when you make an assertion like, "anal sex is always gravely sinful," the burden of proof rests on you. What counter evidence do you have?

[Jaime]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1312377842' post='2280805']

Fair enough. Here is a quote from Fr Heribert Jones, Moral Theology:


This is from a pre-Vatican II text, and it surprised me to read it!

And btw, when you make an assertion like, "anal sex is always gravely sinful," the burden of proof rests on you. What counter evidence do you have?
[/quote]
Well first I must say I'm impressed with the research. Secondly I must say

EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

OK now that I got that out of my system. There's a couple of problems here Mortify. First just because a theologian says something, it doesn't mean that it is a magisterial teaching. Secondly, I have a problem with Fr Jones definition of sodomy. One it goes against the traditional definition and B. Its horribly sexist. If the only means of something being sodomy is the loss of seminal fluid, then by his logic, two women would never commit a sin that cries to heaven. And quite frankly, that just doesn't make sense

[Azriel]

This thread makes my head hurt.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Azriel' timestamp='1312401923' post='2280995']
This thread makes my head hurt.
[/quote]

I agree it's one of the dumbest threads I've read in a while.