Is God A Moral Monster?

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1316350153' post='2306196']

Conservatively god has killed millions in the bible, and commanded even more killed... Is this the god Christians worship?
[/quote]


Conservatively, God has created billions in the universe, and this is the God we Christians worship. And God's Word (Jesus) spoke to us and said, "Don't be afraid of those who can kill the body, only those who can kill the soul." He wasn't speaking of His Father, but of we humans who keep killing each other. But in doing so, He was trying to get us to focus on something more important than just the temporary, physical body - to realise that there is another life that awaits us after this one.

Supposing we even understand all that the Bible has in it, and could blame God for every single death that has occured (which, in a way, we can since He gives life and He takes it away) -- we can't see into the mind of God to understand not only His reasons, but His responses to such things. All souls are immortal - what happens to them after death is God's grace.

If you can believe in God enough to blame Him for things, then try to see a little beyond simply the externals.... to the reality that He is trying to show us.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1316353353' post='2306210']Conservatively, God has created billions in the universe, and this is the God we Christians worship. And God's Word (Jesus) spoke to us and said, "Don't be afraid of those who can kill the body, only those who can kill the soul." He wasn't speaking of His Father, but of we humans who keep killing each other. But in doing so, He was trying to get us to focus on something more important than just the temporary, physical body - to realise that there is another life that awaits us after this one.[/quote]Does that excuse god for violating his own mandates to not kill or contradicting those mandates upon whim? [quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1316353353' post='2306210']Supposing we even understand all that the Bible has in it, and could blame God for every single death that has occured (which, in a way, we can since He gives life and He takes it away) -- we can't see into the mind of God to understand not only His reasons, but His responses to such things. All souls are immortal - what happens to them after death is God's grace.[/quote]Saint Thomas Aquinas in the summa theologica in places seems troubled by killings in the name of god, he offers an explanation that because somehow it promotes justice ([i]by killing people that don't agree with you[/i]) that this may bring them mercy somehow... Which might be a reasonable rebuttal, that the millions of people that god has killed have a better chance at eternal bliss, but unfortunately this position even Tomas Aquinas seems uncertain of, namely because it is largely unsupportable. The Church is hesitant to even claim that innocent unborn babies have a chance of eternal bliss... Great god eh?[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1316353353' post='2306210']If you can believe in God enough to blame Him for things, then try to see a little beyond simply the externals.... to the reality that He is trying to show us.
[/quote]But I don't believe in any god... I can give contextual criticism without believing in a story. I can say that allah of the Koran is a bizarre and abusive god just as I can do god of the bible. It's when your position only makes sense when you MUST believe first, is when it's clear your position is one purely of bias.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1316350153' post='2306196']
[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1316341675' post='2306192']
You write as though God and Jesus were individuals.
[/quote]

I write of them as if they are fictional characters in a fictional narrative.
[/quote]
This statement is contradicted by your remaining claims. If you think God is fictitious how can you accuse him of anything? Unless you are the author of the fiction!

[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1316350153' post='2306196']
[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1316341675' post='2306192']
[b] Why would he make that public?[/b] Except to teach us.
[/quote]
Teach us that god made his own son suffer horribly out of love and mercy? There is reason why in the Bible it is written "[i]But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock, and untothe Gentiles foolishness[/i]". If you don't believe, if you suspend your beliefs or critically think about it, it's hard to see anything good in this.
[/quote]
In your previous response you said my view that God and Jesus are the one entity was 'maybe'. Now you are stating the view that they are individuals as fact. Even if they were individuals, why do you assume God had a meh attitude to Jesus situation? Jesus could have slipped out of town or even called a legion of angels to defend himself. How often in life do we see acts of total sacrifice in order to accomplish a greater result. If God had not made the sacrifice would more or less souls be saved? There is a lady in our parish who suffers the most horrible rheumatoid arthritis, is always sick from the medicines yet remains vigilant in her faith. Instead of feeling sorry for herself she continues to work for others who are ill. She is an inspiration to us all, without people like her more would think God doesn't care. God is sacrificing her to save others... [b]but[/b] the sacrifice is only minuscule compared to what he has planned for her in his kingdom. What is the earth compared to the Universe? What is 80 years give or take, compared to eternity?

[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1316350153' post='2306196']
[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1316341675' post='2306192']
Why would he even consider it? He was wise enough to know that was his destiny. I'm sure he was teaching us that there is nothing wrong with asking God to be excused of our suffering and that when we plead with God for it, there is nothing to be ashamed of, it's quite human.
[/quote]
But god made him suffer anyways... is that a lesson how god hears our pleas to lessen suffering?
[/quote]
Jesus could have refused. If he did, how would that encourage the millions to cary their cross knowing that the God that supposedly loved them refused to suffer with them. Fr. Damien of Moloki went to the leper colony to love and die with the lepers. Fr chose that! Yes, God stood by and let him but no doubt Fr's 'free choice' saved the souls of many whom had felt abandoned.

[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1316350153' post='2306196']
No, I don't choose to. I don't glorify the torture or execution of anyone.
[/quote]
It's not a matter of glorification. It's a case of no one can claim that God doesn't know or share our pain, which was the point of my original post where rape was made to be the most horrible of experiences and possibly it is. What message do we get from all this? If there was another way why not chose it rather than watch those you love suffer so intensly and have to endure it yourself to show how you love them. Obviously there is no other choice.


[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1316350153' post='2306196']
Or maybe god could simply demonstrate himself? Or be the god that he's supposed to be? That would certainly make them believe!
God could unconditionally love and forgive us, a bit like the good samaritan story or the prodigal son.
[/quote]
[b]Make [/b]them believe? Rather a pointless exercise don't you think? Real love cannot be bought! You can't reward for it! You can't terrorise people for it! [b]True love has to be obtained by free choice! [/b]God gave us free choice so that we could choose to love him or not. Then it would be real or not. The trouble is free choice also gave us the power to choose not to follow Gods laws of goodness and to follow evil selfish ways.

[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1316350153' post='2306196']


Do these horrendous acts mentioned before in the opening post make god a monster by human standards, even if god is moral?
[/quote]
What is death of the earthly body? Is that a bad thing? When the grub dies and becomes a butterfly. Do you pity the grub?

[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1316350153' post='2306196']
Conservatively god has killed millions in the bible, and commanded even more killed... Is this the god Christians worship?
[/quote]
It is said that The Bible is not a History book. Personally I find a literal interpretation ludicrous. I think I could write a page on practical problems with the story of Noahs Ark. As for Jonah and the whale...
While there are numerous teachings in the OT they are often covered again more practically in the NT. But even the NT relies heavily on parable metaphors which was the style of writing in those times. The scriptures of Jesus are the ones that speak most profoundly for me. The writings of saints etc are very wise and very noble but not infallible.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1316376777' post='2306386']
It's when your position only makes sense when you MUST believe first, is when it's clear your position is one purely of bias.
[/quote]
People argue with bias over things like scientific theories only to have the whole thing debunked later on. One does not have to believe in something to make a sensible theory. I've made theories about faster than light travel which make sense but are most probably untrue.

Edited September 18, 2011 by Mark of the Cross

[Ice_nine]

Good to see you hanging around these parts again Mark

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1316388389' post='2306482']This statement is contradicted by your remaining claims. If you think God is fictitious how can you accuse him of anything? Unless you are the author of the fiction![/quote]There is no contradiction. I am not accusing god of anything, I am merely offering an evaluation of the bibical god. Belief in the bible or a god is not necessary for this process.[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1316388389' post='2306482']In your previous response you said my view that God and Jesus are the one entity was 'maybe'. Now you are stating the view that they are individuals as fact. Even if they were individuals, why do you assume God had a meh attitude to Jesus situation? Jesus could have slipped out of town or even called a legion of angels to defend himself. How often in life do we see acts of total sacrifice in order to accomplish a greater result. If God had not made the sacrifice would more or less souls be saved? There is a lady in our parish who suffers the most horrible rheumatoid arthritis, is always sick from the medicines yet remains vigilant in her faith. Instead of feeling sorry for herself she continues to work for others who are ill. She is an inspiration to us all, without people like her more would think God doesn't care. God is sacrificing her to save others... but the sacrifice is only minuscule compared to what he has planned for her in his kingdom. What is the earth compared to the Universe? What is 80 years give or take, compared to eternity?[/quote]No, I refuse to speculate on the nature of a god that there is no cause to suspect exists. I will however speculate on the nature of the biblical god, but in this case I have already clarified I treat characters or the god mentioned in the bible as fictional for the sake of this discussion.

If there is someone inspired by their faith, that's wonderful, but that doesn't directly address the subject at hand. If the fear of criminals keeps children from venturing too far from safety, that doesn't validate criminals or crime. But I hesitate to use this comparison as crime and criminals are real, it can be demonstrated and a reasonable concern about it healthy. But this is not so when it comes to this supposed god or faith. This is apart of why I am trying to focus the discussion entirely on the god of the bible.[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1316388389' post='2306482']Jesus could have refused. If he did, how would that encourage the millions to cary their cross knowing that the God that supposedly loved them refused to suffer with them. Fr. Damien of Moloki went to the leper colony to love and die with the lepers. Fr chose that! Yes, God stood by and let him but no doubt Fr's 'free choice' saved the souls of many whom had felt abandoned.[/quote]Anecdotal examples are nice, but this doesn't necessarily show anything. I am afraid the problem you are encountering is you are trying to ignore the massive killings in the bible, which conservatively is about 2.5 million and liberally about 25 million. The large variation is due to that many acts of killing in the Bible done by god do not mention how many were killed by rather give comparisons or abstract values. Such as, how many died in the great flood? Which accounts for the majority of life loss. Which the story of the flood is another chapter of a god that does not value human life but sees it as something regrettable and easily snuffed out.[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1316388389' post='2306482']It's not a matter of glorification. It's a case of no one can claim that God doesn't know or share our pain, which was the point of my original post where rape was made to be the most horrible of experiences and possibly it is. What message do we get from all this? If there was another way why not chose it rather than watch those you love suffer so intensly and have to endure it yourself to show how you love them. Obviously there is no other choice.[/quote]In most theologies created from the bible, original sin is the cause for the majority of humanity's sufferings. So a god so loved us to afflict us for a crime that we possibly see as an allegory, to later suffer horribly to inspire us, well...

I don't buy it. Which as I quoted the Bible in my response earlier that unless you believe, the crucifixion does not make sense and it cannot inspire anyone.[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1316388389' post='2306482']Make them believe? Rather a pointless exercise don't you think? Real love cannot be bought! You can't reward for it! You can't terrorise people for it! True love has to be obtained by free choice! God gave us free choice so that we could choose to love him or not. Then it would be real or not. The trouble is free choice also gave us the power to choose not to follow Gods laws of goodness and to follow evil selfish ways.[/quote]It has been my experience when Christians start speaking of "love" that it is rarely what I would consider it. Christians believe in "love" they can harshly treat someone, because it is for their own good that they change their ways to conform with Christianity. That isn't love, that is coercion, exactly what you are speaking against now.

But going back to the bibical god... Those who don't believe, follow, and worship him can be killed... Those who merely doubt can be killed, such as in 2 Kings chapter 7. According to the bible those who do not faithfully love and serve god are subject to what is commonly called "hell", a place of eternal fire and punishment. SO it seems the bibical god has some problems of psychological splitting, either you are completely for god or completely against god. That loving and merciful god would allow his "children" to suffer forever because of a condition he imposed onto them as punishment, such as loss of "beatific vision" which would make understanding god a lot easier.

So where is the free choice? If person x held a gun to person's b head, who happens to be blind, and demanded that he can choose to live or die dependent if remembers color shirt he is wearing. Is that free or fair?[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1316388389' post='2306482']What is death of the earthly body? Is that a bad thing? When the grub dies and becomes a butterfly. Do you pity the grub?[/quote]That is hoping there is a better after life. But this didn't answer my question.

There is [b]no[/b] indication that these people killed by god receive any benefit from it at all.

When do you pity the loss of life as a Christian?[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1316388389' post='2306482']It is said that The Bible is not a History book. Personally I find a literal interpretation ludicrous. I think I could write a page on practical problems with the story of Noahs Ark. As for Jonah and the whale...

While there are numerous teachings in the OT they are often covered again more practically in the NT. But even the NT relies heavily on parable metaphors which was the style of writing in those times. The scriptures of Jesus are the ones that speak most profoundly for me. The writings of saints etc are very wise and very noble but not infallible.[/quote]So when it comes to the majority of these acts of violence in the bible, you dismiss it as not literal... So what is supposed to be learned from these horrible tales? How does that change the god of the bible?

Edited September 19, 2011 by Mr.Cat

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1316376777' post='2306386']
Does that excuse god for violating his own mandates to not kill or contradicting those mandates upon whim? [/quote]

Yes. If you understand God the way I do, which obviously you don't. your God is as limited as a human being is, so you miss the big picture.






[quote] Saint Thomas Aquinas in the summa theologica in places seems troubled by killings in the name of god, he offers an explanation that because somehow it promotes justice ([i]by killing people that don't agree with you[/i]) that this may bring them mercy somehow... Which might be a reasonable rebuttal, that the millions of people that god has killed have a better chance at eternal bliss, but unfortunately this position even Tomas Aquinas seems uncertain of, namely because it is largely unsupportable. The Church is hesitant to even claim that innocent unborn babies have a chance of eternal bliss... Great god eh?But I don't believe in any god... I can give contextual criticism without believing in a story. I can say that allah of the Koran is a bizarre and abusive god just as I can do god of the bible. It's when your position only makes sense when you MUST believe first, is when it's clear your position is one purely of bias.
[/quote]

We as humans are commanded not to kill each other, and Jesus asks us to love each other instead. You are still trying to put God in the same category as humans, which He is not... but as I said above, we obviously don't have the same understanding or perception of God. This is irreconcilable I think.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1316432880' post='2306854']Yes. If you understand God the way I do, which obviously you don't. your God is as limited as a human being is, so you miss the big picture.[/quote]This is an exercise in critical thinking and skepticism, merely saying that your god is exempt or is unlimited does is merely thought stopping. So it's not a matter of missing the big picture, its quite simply you refuse to consider the contradictory acts and commands of your god.[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1316432880' post='2306854']We as humans are commanded not to kill each other, and Jesus asks us to love each other instead. You are still trying to put God in the same category as humans, which He is not... but as I said above, we obviously don't have the same understanding or perception of God. This is irreconcilable I think.[/quote]And we as humans are commanded in the bible to kill for god, repeatedly. Even [i]Jesus[/i] in the New Testament makes a similar reference.

You are trying to make an appeal to authority or special pleading, both are informal logic fallacies. But I am not trying to put the god of the bible into the same category as humans [i](although claiming that god is inhuman works to the argument that god is a moral monster, since being inhuman is one of the criteria for being a monster[/i]) but rather skeptically and critically review the behavior and attitude of this god of the bible.

I tried desperately to explain to Winchester the deep philosophical and logical problems with this kind of reasoning, because I would of liked to imagine Winchester as a semi-reasonable man, however this almost utterly failed. But unfortunately... EVEN IF this was NOT an informal logic fallacy of appealing to authority and special pleading, it wouldn't disqualify god from being a monster, it would merely make it moral ([i]whatever that means for this discussion[/i]).

But one of the problems of this perspective is that it would validate any acts committed in the name of a god, since there is no demonstrable way to verify or confirm the instructions of any given god except for faith. Meaning Muslim terrorists are logically justified by their faith to kill and possibly morally justified, according to this reasoning.

Because what is good is not always right and what is right is not always good. This sort of lends itself to a topic in the open mic where people are unable to identify moral dilemmas or ethical paradoxes. The inability of many of the religious people here to identify the ethical paradox of a god that commands us not to kill and claims to cherish human life but at the same time commands us to kill and causes suffering/death of human life is disturbing.

I offered a possible solution to this on page 2, which is how a catholic theologian I am familiar with argued it... even he admits the god of the bible sometimes seems irreconcilable to Christian notions of god, but he like "Mark of the Cross" appeals the chiefly religious nature of the bible. This is where I find him more creditable, he was able to identify the ethical paradox and offered a reasonable explanation that didn't commit an informal logic fallacy... Was even able to admit that we don't always have the answers to these horrible acts described in the bible... I find this refreshing, but it does leave some questions open and I was hopeful that is what would be explored.

That is why this started out in the theology board but was moved when someone threw a temper tantrum about it and continued it into this thread. I suppose I always have to keep lowering my expectations of religious persons even more below normal. Maybe I should keep my discussions to persons more competent to respond, maybe the err is mine.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Mr.Cat

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1316435513' post='2306888']
This is an exercise in critical thinking and skepticism, merely saying that your god is exempt or is unlimited does is merely thought stopping. So it's not a matter of missing the big picture, its quite simply you refuse to consider the contradictory acts and commands of your god.And we as humans are commanded in the bible to kill for god, repeatedly. Even [i]Jesus[/i] in the New Testament makes a similar reference.[/quote]

That's why I said we had irreconcilable differences - because I don't believe that God (in my definition) can be subject to human critical thinking - He is beyond that. I can see where you are coming from because I once had similar views, but I have been given the gift of faith. And it is a gift... not the same as just trying to believe something, but actually being given an understanding. So I am happy to let you be the 'winner' of the 'critical thinking' argument. God has been kind enough to bless me with something more than just being clever with thoughts and words.


[quote]You are trying to make an appeal to authority or special pleading, both are informal logic fallacies. But I am not trying to put the god of the bible into the same category as humans [i](although claiming that god is inhuman works to the argument that god is a moral monster, since being inhuman is one of the criteria for being a monster[/i]) but rather skeptically and critically review the behavior and attitude of this god of the bible. I tried desperately to explain to Winchester the deep philosophical and logical problems with this kind of reasoning, because I would of liked to imagine Winchester as a semi-reasonable man, however this almost utterly failed. But unfortunately... EVEN IF this was NOT an informal logic fallacy of appealing to authority and special pleading, it wouldn't disqualify god from being a monster, it would merely make it moral ([i]whatever that means for this discussion[/i]).

Because what is good is not always right and what is right is not always good. This sort of lends itself to a topic in the open mic where people are unable to identify moral dilemmas or ethical paradoxes. The inability of many of the religious people here to identify the ethical paradox of a god that commands us not to kill and claims to cherish human life but at the same time commands us to kill and causes suffering/death of human life is disturbing but quite expected.

I offered a possible solution to this on page 2, which is how a catholic theologian I am familiar with argued it... even he admits the god of the bible sometimes seems irreconcilable to Christian notions of god, but he like "Mark of the Cross" appeals the chiefly religious nature of the bible. This is where I find him more creditable, he was able to identify the ethical paradox and offered a reasonable explanation that didn't commit an informal logic fallacy... Was even able to admit that we don't always have the answers to these horrible acts described in the bible... I find this refreshing, but it does leave some questions open and I was hopeful that is what would be explored.

But... as usual, religiosity pushes people to defend absurd ideas against all intrusions... That is why this started out in the theology board but was moved when someone threw a temper tantrum about it and continued it into this thread.
[/quote]

Look, you use words as weapons to cover up that you just don't have any answers and because you don't understand, you want to blame someone for something, so you choose your imaginary concept of a God that is a moral monster. What's right and wrong for humans is not right and wrong for God (the real God, not your limited view of him) since He created not only us, but the whole concept of right and wrong. And your logic is pretty flawed if anything that isn't human is a monster.... doesn't necessarily follow. What isn't human, could also be divine - and beyond our ability to judge.

But I don't think a continued discussion has any point since you are committed to your view as surely as any Christian is to theirs so I withdraw from this thread. I am happy to read whatever you write in response, but I see an inflexibility in your responses that is just going to lead us into circles.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1316436282' post='2306892']That's why I said we had irreconcilable differences - because I don't believe that God (in my definition) can be subject to human critical thinking - He is beyond that. I can see where you are coming from because I once had similar views, but I have been given the gift of faith. And it is a gift... not the same as just trying to believe something, but actually being given an understanding. So I am happy to let you be the 'winner' of the 'critical thinking' argument. God has been kind enough to bless me with something more than just being clever with thoughts and words.[/quote]I'm not trying to win, but thank you I guess?[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1316436282' post='2306892']Look, you use words as weapons to cover up that you just don't have any answers and because you don't understand, you want to blame someone for something, so you choose your imaginary concept of a God that is a moral monster.[/quote]I cannot blame what does not exist. But I can criticize an imaginary concept and review it through human facilities such as reason.[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1316436282' post='2306892']What's right and wrong for humans is not right and wrong for God (the real God, not your limited view of him) since He created not only us, but the whole concept of right and wrong.[/quote]So your god can be a hypocrite?[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1316436282' post='2306892']And your logic is pretty flawed if anything that isn't human is a monster.... doesn't necessarily follow. What isn't human, could also be divine - and beyond our ability to judge.[/quote]Inhuman does not mean "nonhuman". Also I didn't say that the god of the bible being inhuman would necessarily make that god a monster, but I did say it would definitely contribute to that argument. But the fallacy you keep committing is this special pleading you keep making... it's like 1984's new speak, it is impossible for you to speak the word "god and bad" in the same sentence while understanding. It's the perfect way of eliminating thought crime!

The older I become the more I believe 1984 is a perfect religious commentary... because remember, god is always watching you, even in your thoughts.[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1316436282' post='2306892']But I don't think a continued discussion has any point since you are committed to your view as surely as any Christian is to theirs so I withdraw from this thread. I am happy to read whatever you write in response, but I see an inflexibility in your responses that is just going to lead us into circles.[/quote]Yes, sadly I agree with you here, the majority of this topic has been non-discussion... sad but true. Escape while you still can comrade.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Mr.Cat

[AccountDeleted]

The only thing I felt any point responding to in your last post was this:

'...it is impossible for you to speak the word "god and bad" in the same sentence ...'


YES!!! Now you get it!! God cannot be used with the word 'bad' in the same sentence, especially if you are using the word bad to describe Him. The word GOD to me EQUATES with the word GOOD (not meaning to shout but to add emphasis). God is the essence of goodness - full stop, ergo, all that God does is good. God is the definition of goodness, holiness, love.... etc etc etc. Bad or evil is the absence of God or the turning away from God, such as humans do when they fail to recognise that this goodness is the source of their lives. So, no I can't use bad as an adjective in relation to God.

[MithLuin]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1311449454' post='2274432']
Ok.

What light does the Cross of Christ shed on this

[url="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/num/31.html"]http://skepticsannot...com/num/31.html[/url]


?
[/quote]

[b]Hassan[/b], as ya know, the Israelites at the time were engaged in many bloody wars. Perhaps more significantly, though, they were fightin' a cultural war, as well, to have their people, their way of life restored to their old home after the time in Egypt.

Puttin' all the armed men to death is how you matey matey fight a war of annihilation. Puttin' the people to death - only allowin' the young girls to live - be seen as a way of preventin' idol worship a.nd pagan customs from infiltratin' the ranks of the people of Israel.

Genocide can be a very effective way of makin' sure your culture is the one that lives on. It's still genocide, of course.

So...what does the cross of Christ teach us? That ya can die but still win. Transmittin' the gospel is done by martyrs more than by genocidal armies, aye? I'm not sayin' no one has ever tried conversion by the sword. I'm sayin' that it doesn't tend to work so well; thar's a strong Christian tradition favorin' martyrdom of missionaries to this approach.

Genocide is condemned.


Well...then why did Moses tell them they could do it, if that's not the way it's supposed to be? Jesus answered that question, too.

[quote] Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testin' Him an.d askin', "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?"

He answered sayin', "Have ye not read that He who created them from the beginnin' MADE THEM MALE an.d FEMALE, an.d said, `FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER an.d MOTHER an.d BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, an.d THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'? So they be no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."

They said to Him, "Why then did Moses comman.d to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE an.d SEND her AWAY?"

[i][color=#3e4136]He said to them[/color][/i][b][i][color=#3e4136], "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted ye [/color][/i][/b][i][color=#3e4136]to divorce [/color][color=#3e4136]your wives[/color][/i][b][i][color=#3e4136]; but from the beginnin' it has not been this way.[/color][/i][/b]

Matthew 19:3-8[/quote]

Edit: Stooopid pirates. <grrrr>

Edited September 19, 2011 by MithLuin

[MithLuin]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1312053784' post='2278593']
If God speaks to ya in your head. ya hear His voice an' ya KNOW it is Him an' He tells ya to kill a person or many people, do ya take Abraham's example an' trust in the Lord an' to the best of your ability attempt to kill these people?
[/quote]

If ye be the [i]Boondock Saints[/i], aye.

[img]http://www.davesmoviereviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/The-Boondock-Saints-2-3.jpg[/img]

I think most people would be like Hamlet though, they would muck around a bit first lookin' for external confirmation that the people in question were really scumbags deservin' to die...that this be the right thin' to do. The ghost tells Hamlet the truth (your uncle is a murderer an' usurper), but he decides the play's the thin' to catch the conscience of the kin'. It is only after that bit of independent confirmation that he's able to act to take revenge for his father's murder.

Meanin', no, your average person would not behave like Abraham, because your average person does not have the faith of Abraham. Most people I know would take such a serious matter to a spiritual director and aarrr ask for advice, not relyin' on their own opinion alone to decide what to do. Not surprisin'ly, while God asks people to do difficult thin's quite often, He doesn't usually require you matey to suspend or act against your conscience. More people have put down swords than picked them up when they start listenin' to the voice of God.

Edited September 19, 2011 by MithLuin

[SoonerCatholic]

be readin' through this thread today and it put me in mind of Sunday's first readin' from Isaiah 55:6-9:

"Seek the LORD while he may be found,
call him while he is near.
Let the scoundrel forsake his way,
and the wicked his thoughts;
let him turn to the LORD for mercy;
to our God, who is generous in forgivin'.
For me thoughts are not your thoughts,
nor are your ways me ways, says the LORD.
As high as the heavens are above the earth,
so high are me ways above your ways
and me thoughts above your thoughts."

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1316410725' post='2306723']

If there is someone inspired by their faith, that's wonderful, but that doesn't directly address the subject at hand. If the fear of criminals keeps children from venturing too far from safety, that doesn't validate criminals or crime. But I hesitate to use this comparison as crime and criminals are real, it can be demonstrated and a reasonable concern about it healthy. But this is not so when it comes to this supposed god or faith. This is apart of why I am trying to focus the discussion entirely on the god of the bible.
[/quote]
No true Christian is a Christian out of fear of God or of what may happen if they don't obey him. I chose to be a Christian firstly because my reason makes me see him with certitude through creation, but I also see how he did it through science. Evolution etc. Secondly I have developed a relationship with Jesus which is more real to me than my human relationships. In my younger life I got angry with God, but in all fairness if I tried to be an atheist it would have been a lie. The ancient term 'God Fearing' is a mistranslation. God does not need to be feared, we only need to fear our choices ourselves! If you make a car and I injure myself in it, is that your fault?


[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1316410725' post='2306723']
I am afraid the problem you are encountering is you are trying to ignore the massive killings in the bible, which conservatively is about 2.5 million and liberally about 25 million. The large variation is due to that many acts of killing in the Bible done by god do not mention how many were killed by rather give comparisons or abstract values. Such as, how many died in the great flood? Which accounts for the majority of life loss. Which the story of the flood is another chapter of a god that does not value human life but sees it as something regrettable and easily snuffed out.In most theologies created from the bible, original sin is the cause for the majority of humanity's sufferings. So a god so loved us to afflict us for a crime that we possibly see as an allegory, to later suffer horribly to inspire us, well...
[/quote]

I'm not ignoring the alleged killings. You are viewing God like a human who kills for selfish motives and leaves the victim to rot or to their faith. God is different. God made man and he made him mortal, therefore God is responsible for everyone's death. But his objective is quite the opposite to a cold human killer. God gave man free choice to chose his love or not. Man chose a wrong path, so God made man mortal for reasons that by his death and resurrection he may be made fit for God's kingdom.


[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1316410725' post='2306723']
I don't buy it. Which as I quoted the Bible in my response earlier that unless you believe, the crucifixion does not make sense and it cannot inspire anyone.It has been my experience when Christians start speaking of "love" that it is rarely what I would consider it. Christians believe in "love" they can harshly treat someone, because it is for their own good that they change their ways to conform with Christianity. That isn't love, that is coercion, exactly what you are speaking against now.
[/quote]
No real Christian believes in coercion to make people believe. Free choice is always the catch phrase. But in practice humans tend to give up as soon as the going gets tough. A person who contracts leprosy then gets cast away on an island by society where no one cares, becomes despondent and feels abandoned by both man and God. But when a healthy man comes to live with them and care about them knowing that it will result in his own death people learn from this person the true nature of God. IMO suffering and death is collateral damage. If God could achieve his objective without it then I feel he would choose that option. The part that you have missed is you can see the coldness in this life but not the warmth of the next.


[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1316410725' post='2306723']
But going back to the bibical god... Those who don't believe, follow, and worship him can be killed... Those who merely doubt can be killed, such as in 2 Kings chapter 7. According to the bible those who do not faithfully love and serve god are subject to what is commonly called "hell", a place of eternal fire and punishment. SO it seems the bibical god has some problems of psychological splitting, either you are completely for god or completely against god. That loving and merciful god would allow his "children" to suffer forever because of a condition he imposed onto them as punishment, such as loss of "beatific vision" which would make understanding god a lot easier.
[/quote]
You need to take a look at Fr Barron's youtube video 'Is hell full or empty.' Hell is not a place where God tortures people. Hell is a state of consciousness where people go by there own choosing only to realise who and what God is and what they have rejected. If you forgot to buy your lotto ticket and your numbers came up wouldn't that be hell?

[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1316410725' post='2306723']
So where is the free choice? If person x held a gun to person's b head, who happens to be blind, and demanded that he can choose to live or die dependent if remembers color shirt he is wearing. Is that free or fair?That is hoping there is a better after life. But this didn't answer my question.
[/quote]
You seem to be saying that God should reveal himself before you make your choice. But that would not be free choice. If a man marries a girl knowing she has lots of money, he may never know why he married her. For years he will question if it was her or the money and so will she and the relationship will not be the same as it would be if he had chosen her without the knowledge of the money.

[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1316410725' post='2306723']
There is [b]no[/b] indication that these people killed by god receive any benefit from it at all.
[/quote]
Is there an indication that they did not receive any benefit?

[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1316410725' post='2306723']
When do you pity the loss of life as a Christian?So when it comes to the majority of these acts of violence in the bible, you dismiss it as not literal... So what is supposed to be learned from these horrible tales? How does that change the god of the bible?
[/quote]
As far as the Bible is concerned I don't think I've ever read it in it's entirety. To be honest I don't even know the whys and wherefores of these killings by God, so I can't offer an explanation except to say that many stories cannot be literal, because they don't make sense eg Noah and his ark. My relationship is with Jesus. What I've read in the Bible that he supposedly quoted, mostly but not all, seems to relate to this ethereal person that I know. Elsewhere in the Bible there are many great stories and quotes that I have learned from, but I don't and will not ever understand it all. No need that I can see. If you read the Bible trying to find a reason to despise or disbelieve God then no doubt you will find it and only you can change that outlook.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Mark of the Cross