Is God A Moral Monster?

[AccountDeleted]

I can relate to why you want to know all these things but let's face it, you have as much hope of understanding God's reasons for what He does, as you do of emptying the Pacific Ocean with a teaspoon (with credit to St Augustine on the impossibility of understanding the Trinity).

Even if you find the explanation for just one of the things in scripture that perplex you, there would be another, and another and yet another and your life would be over before you ever got close to complete understanding (which is truly impossible with our finite and temporal perspective on life, the universe, and everything). That doesn't mean you shouldn't try - by all means go ahead and do so. But just remember that even the brilliant St Thomas Aquinas came to the conclusion that all his writings were 'as straw' and wanted to burn them! Because in the end, it all boils down to love.

God allows us to question and search and ask and ponder - but what pleases Him most is pure and simple faith. Our faith demonstrates love and trust in Him, and what it says to Him is "Okay, Lord, I don't really understand why you do what you do, or what it all means, but as an act of faith, I am going to trust that you do know best, and that everything you do is out of pure love for us and for all your creation." This is the faith of a child for their parent - not knowing why Mom or Dad does what they do, but trusting that it must be okay if they think it is. And no mother or father could ever be as loving and kind, as fair and just, and merciful or as generous as God is towards His creation.

This kind of faith is the pearl of great price that Jesus speaks of in His parables. The surest way to know God is through faith. It sounds like a very trite answer, but it's true. And in writing this, I don't mean to dismiss your need to know or to understand, not at all.... let's just say that, having walked down that road, I found myself travelling in a circle that led back to the beginning again - to the need for faith and trust in His love for us. But hey, sometimes just walking the road can be part of the whole process that God uses to bring us closer, so have fun along the way!

[rizz_loves_jesus]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1314626507' post='2296870']

God is the source of all good. everything he does is good and just and right. if we don't understand it and think its immoral,that's our fault,not his. we are the ones with the inferior intellect, not God. whatever God does he is just and right in doing so. when your the creator of all life, you do so as you wish.
[/quote]

I could understand killing someone in that sense, but rape? How is rapeever justified? [i]Ever[/i]?

[ceciliatherese]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1314632243' post='2296892']
I can relate to why you want to know all these things but let's face it, you have as much hope of understanding God's reasons for what He does, as you do of emptying the Pacific Ocean with a teaspoon (with credit to St Augustine on the impossibility of understanding the Trinity).

Even if you find the explanation for just one of the things in scripture that perplex you, there would be another, and another and yet another and your life would be over before you ever got close to complete understanding (which is truly impossible with our finite and temporal perspective on life, the universe, and everything). That doesn't mean you shouldn't try - by all means go ahead and do so. But just remember that even the brilliant St Thomas Aquinas came to the conclusion that all his writings were 'as straw' and wanted to burn them! Because in the end, it all boils down to love.

God allows us to question and search and ask and ponder - but what pleases Him most is pure and simple faith. Our faith demonstrates love and trust in Him, and what it says to Him is "Okay, Lord, I don't really understand why you do what you do, or what it all means, but as an act of faith, I am going to trust that you do know best, and that everything you do is out of pure love for us and for all your creation." This is the faith of a child for their parent - not knowing why Mom or Dad does what they do, but trusting that it must be okay if they think it is. And no mother or father could ever be as loving and kind, as fair and just, and merciful or as generous as God is towards His creation.

This kind of faith is the pearl of great price that Jesus speaks of in His parables. The surest way to know God is through faith. It sounds like a very trite answer, but it's true. And in writing this, I don't mean to dismiss your need to know or to understand, not at all.... let's just say that, having walked down that road, I found myself travelling in a circle that led back to the beginning again - to the need for faith and trust in His love for us. But hey, sometimes just walking the road can be part of the whole process that God uses to bring us closer, so have fun along the way!
[/quote]

I didn't find your answer trite, I thought it was pretty beautiful actually. The thing is though, that you'd find it a bit hard to love a God who seemingly ordered rape too, wouldn't you? Even though He's done so many other loving things (his crucifixion and death) there are those few blaring things, that make you just wonder, why? If God's good, why would he do this? See, you need to have a basis as to why he's good, to accept those things that don't make sense. I also have a very outspokenly atheist brother, who is VERY convincing. He's raised many issues with me. I believe God's smarter than atheism, and He needs to have answers to those questions atheists raise, and the answers have to be within our reach. Hope I made sense O.o

[Gregorius]

My goodness. I don't even know where to begin. I guess rather than trying to pick out pieces from the last couple of pages I'll just make a claim on my own, and then anyone can comment/contest that claim if they want.
TL;DR section. If you want to skip this part, scroll to the bottom of the post where you will see "/TL;DR", as I can't find the spoiler tags in this new format.

The question is, is God a moral monster? in that question one must first take certain factors into consideration:
"God" in this case apparently refers to the Judeo-Christian God. This is because it seems this thread is a split-off from another thread where the same deity was being discussed.
Also, it appears in the context of this particular thread that for Christian purposes, previous posters were speaking specifically about God the Father, whether or not it is theologically correct to speak of God in such manner as being so separated from the other two persons of the Trinity.
In the context of this question arose another one, that of the origin of morality. Keep in mind that moral systems and values held by various human beings over the course of human existence are not necessarily the same as morals in the objective sense, or their correlation to reality. If you all will forgive my gross paraphrasing of Wikipedia, there is a difference between morality in the "descriptive" and "normative sense". Go look up the article for further explanation.
Finally, if the readers of this thread can agree a little bit more on what is meant by "God" and "morality", we can ask, "is God a moral monster?" Specifically, what is cited is a page listing verses that show where God either kills, or has people do the same. Do these acts make God a moral monster? That is why the thread is being discussed.

/TL;DR

I am making a counterclaim to what I am assuming is the original poster's claim in this thread.[b] No, God is not a moral monster.[/b]

Discuss.

[Gregorius]

Also, Charity. Please refraining from referring to atheists as emotionally disgruntled ex-Catholics or whatever previous posters did, and don't refer to Catholics as religious fanatics who want to murder people or whatever it was that previous posters did. Thank You.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Gregorius' timestamp='1314666117' post='2297189']
Also, Charity. Please refraining from referring to atheists as emotionally disgruntled ex-Catholics or whatever previous posters did, and don't refer to Catholics as religious fanatics who want to murder people or whatever it was that previous posters did. Thank You.
[/quote]
Yes dad.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Gregorius' timestamp='1314666117' post='2297189']
Also, Charity. Please refraining from referring to atheists as emotionally disgruntled ex-Catholics or whatever previous posters did, and don't refer to Catholics as religious fanatics who want to murder people or whatever it was that previous posters did. Thank You.
[/quote]
What about calling out passive aggressive posts?

[Gregorius]

Now who would do such a despicable thing like that?

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='ceciliatherese' timestamp='1314639708' post='2296966']

I didn't find your answer trite, I thought it was pretty beautiful actually. The thing is though, that you'd find it a bit hard to love a God who seemingly ordered rape too, wouldn't you? Even though He's done so many other loving things (his crucifixion and death) there are those few blaring things, that make you just wonder, why? If God's good, why would he do this? See, you need to have a basis as to why he's good, to accept those things that don't make sense. I also have a very outspokenly atheist brother, who is VERY convincing. He's raised many issues with me. I believe God's smarter than atheism, and He needs to have answers to those questions atheists raise, and the answers have to be within our reach. Hope I made sense O.o
[/quote]

I really don't know how to reply to your question because we are standing on two different sides of the river and can barely hear each other - at least that's what it feels like to me right now. I don't judge God as 'good' because His actions are pleasing (or even just understandable) to me. The way I see it, God is good because He is the creator of goodness itself, and therefore the source of all goodness as well. From our limited perspective, some of the actions ascribed to Him (most especially in the Old Testament) seem unfathomable because they simply don't make sense to our either our minds or our hearts. The fact that you get so upset about these actions is a good thing because it means that you are compassionate and hate to see others hurt. But taking it to the next step and judging God by these reported activities is a mistake in my opinion, because we simply don't have all the facts in each case, nor will we in this life. No problem in questioning the morality of the acts, because for any of us to do these things would be morally wrong - that is definitely true. The problem occurs when we try to judge God based on what we read in scriptures - this is wrong for oh so many reasons...

A very poor analogy, but the only one I can think of right now is a medical one and it won't seem completely analogous because we can see the end good in this example whereas we can't in the moral offensives of scripture (from where we are now). When my sister and nephew were coming back to Australia from England on a Russian passenger ship, my nephew became very ill. the medical personnel didn't speak very good English but they managed to convey to my sister that my nephew needed not only frequent injections into his neck, where a swollen gland had developed into the size of a large grapefruit, but also that they had to cut into it frequently as well to reduce the swelling. My nephew was very young and didn't understand why every few hours he had to undergo very painful procedures and he kept crying to his mother to make them stop hurting him. She would hold his hand and endure all the pain with him but she had to let them do what they were doing because she didn't know what else to do and she felt it would help him. From my nephew's perspective, everyone was trying to hurt him, and his mother wouldn't stop them. I am sure it was hard on everyone involved but it was not only difficult for the Russian medical team to explain to the mother, it was impossible for them to explain to the child! If there were better medical techniques, they didn't know them.

As I said, the example isn't great, but sometimes I think that God must feel like my sister - watching things that He finds abhorrent, but knowing that certain things must be done in order for other things to happen. I am not justifying God - He needs no justification. I am trying to say that we are the child who simply can't understand sometimes.

As for rape - is it worse than death? I don't know. It's horrific, yes, but so is torture, and child abuse and so many other things. Our world is full of pain and suffering, and Jesus set an example, making suffering an act of redemption. He was God's greatest gift to us, to show us that this world is temporal one, and that suffering comes to an end, all suffering, when we leave this earthly life. And in the meantime, we can use each occasion of suffering to bring ourselves closer to Him here and now, while we wait for our life with Him, including our suffering of the mind and heart.

And to finish the story, my nephew's case was so serious that he and his mother had to be taken off the ship in Sri Lanka and flown back home to Melbourne where the Royal Children's Hospital was waiting to care for him in a less primitive way than the Russians had available on board their ship! He is still alive today and a father himself - but his son has lived with leukemia since being diagnosed at age five (now a happy ten year old in remission). We just can't see the whole tapestry from the bottom - when we go to God one day and finally see it from the top, we will know why all the dark threads had to be there!

[Winchester]

[quote name='Gregorius' timestamp='1314669553' post='2297250']
Now who would do such a despicable thing like that?
[/quote]
I don't know.

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1314827952' post='2298306']
I don't know anything.[/quote]


Cds

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='rizz_loves_jesus' timestamp='1314636523' post='2296923']

I could understand killing someone in that sense, but rape? How is rapeever justified? [i]Ever[/i]?
[/quote]
Just bear in mind a thing that is not often mentioned. Jesus was stripped naked and crucified. They drew lots for his clothes! In those days I presume men didn't wear underwear. And in their culture being naked in public was a very degrading thing. He therefore suffered sexual humiliation as well as the agonising death. He did this for a reason, so it was justified.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1316042605' post='2304770']Just bear in mind a thing that is not often mentioned. Jesus was stripped naked and crucified. They drew lots for his clothes! In those days I presume men didn't wear underwear. And in their culture being naked in public was a very degrading thing. He therefore suffered sexual humiliation as well as the agonising death. He did this for a reason, so it was justified.[/quote]I don't see how this changes anything? Besides according to the Bible it was "god" who ordained all of this, even Jesus in the garden seemed to believe that this is something "the father" was giving him. So it seems god really let Jesus have the human experience, including his very heavy handed sense of mercy.

Edited September 16, 2011 by Mr.Cat

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1316136344' post='2305244']
I don't see how this changes anything? Besides according to the Bible it was "god" who ordained all of this, even Jesus in the garden seemed to believe that this is something "the father" was giving him. So it seems god really let Jesus have the human experience, including his very heavy handed sense of mercy.
[/quote]
You write as though God and Jesus were individuals. We believe they are one. Everything that Jesus did as a man in the way of conversation with the Father was for the benefit of teaching us how we should communicate with God as men. When he asked if the cup could pass him bye![b] Why would he make that public?[/b] Except to teach us. Why would he even consider it? He was wise enough to know that was his destiny. I'm sure he was teaching us that there is nothing wrong with asking God to be excused of our suffering and that when we plead with God for it, there is nothing to be ashamed of, it's quite human. Jesus suffered the full range of torture. Being scourged! Do I need to draw pictures? They were experts at torture and knew exactly where a male is sensitive both to pain and to humiliation. People that Jesus had loved spat and taunted him. Then they nailed him naked to a cross in public. Can you imagine what that would be like? The crucifixion of Jesus was not a case of God allowing it to happen to his son because he he was a cruel father. This was God as a man taking on the full range of suffering for the purpose of showing us that there is a reason for all that we suffer and that his love for us is so great that he would not expect us to suffer without suffering himself to demonstrate this love of us. I'm sure if there were another way God would not let us suffer and therefore would not have had to suffer as one of us. As for the thread question, God made us in his image. All that we do that is good is the image of God. All that we do that is bad is our free choice to choose the temptation of satan. Morality is a good trait from the image of God. Morality is God's nature. To call him a moral monster is illogical captain.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1316341675' post='2306192']You write as though God and Jesus were individuals.[/quote]I write of them as if they are fictional characters in a fictional narrative.[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1316341675' post='2306192']We believe they are one. Everything that Jesus did as a man in the way of conversation with the Father was for the benefit of teaching us how we should communicate with God as men. When he asked if the cup could pass him bye![/quote]Maybe...[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1316341675' post='2306192'][b]Why would he make that public?[/b] Except to teach us.[/quote]Teach us that god made his own son suffer horribly out of love and mercy? There is reason why in the Bible it is written "[i]But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock, and untothe Gentiles foolishness[/i]". If you don't believe, if you suspend your beliefs or critically think about it, it's hard to see anything good in this.[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1316341675' post='2306192'] Why would he even consider it? He was wise enough to know that was his destiny. I'm sure he was teaching us that there is nothing wrong with asking God to be excused of our suffering and that when we plead with God for it, there is nothing to be ashamed of, it's quite human.[/quote]But god made him suffer anyways... is that a lesson how god hears our pleas to lessen suffering?[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1316341675' post='2306192']Jesus suffered the full range of torture. Being scourged! Do I need to draw pictures? They were experts at torture and knew exactly where a male is sensitive both to pain and to humiliation. People that Jesus had loved spat and taunted him. Then they nailed him naked to a cross in public. Can you imagine what that would be like?[/quote]No, I don't choose to. I don't glorify the torture or execution of anyone.[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1316341675' post='2306192']The crucifixion of Jesus was not a case of God allowing it to happen to his son because he he was a cruel father. This was God as a man taking on the full range of suffering for the purpose of showing us that there is a reason for all that we suffer and that his love for us is so great that he would not expect us to suffer without suffering himself to demonstrate this love of us.[/quote]Or maybe god could simply demonstrate himself? Or be the god that he's supposed to be? That would certainly make them believe![quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1316341675' post='2306192']I'm sure if there were another way God would not let us suffer and therefore would not have had to suffer as one of us.[/quote]God could unconditionally love and forgive us, a bit like the good samaritan story or the prodigal son. [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1316341675' post='2306192']As for the thread question, God made us in his image. All that we do that is good is the image of God. All that we do that is bad is our free choice to choose the temptation of satan. Morality is a good trait from the image of God. Morality is God's nature. To call him a moral monster is illogical captain.[/quote]Not necessarily. Honestly it was not me who thought up the topic title. But it's the best way to approach it. Regretfully the discussion before, that Winchester really tried hard to throw in an appeal to authority and special pleading, never really addressed the central question...

Do these horrendous acts mentioned before in the opening post make god a monster by human standards, even if god is moral? A monster could loosely be thought of as a large, powerful, cruel, inhuman entity that inspires fear, horror, or disgust. In the bible god clearly causes fear, horror, and even disgust as in the example of Numbers chapter 16... when god kills 250 men for burning incense he kills another 14,700 for complaining about those killed by god. During the plagues god sent over Egypt, which surely made innocents suffer needlessly, god killed the first born of every egyptian household... which presumably meant many innocent women and children were killed because of god's sense of justice to influence the pharaoh... wouldn't been a bit easier to simply kill the pharaoh or [b]maybe[/b] not harden his heart ([i]no death required![/i]) to hearing their plea to let god's people go? Or maybe even Acts of the Apostles, chapter 5, where Saint Peter with the authority of god kills a man and wife for not donating all their money from selling their land....

Conservatively god has killed millions in the bible, and commanded even more killed... Is this the god Christians worship?

Edited September 18, 2011 by Mr.Cat