Is God A Moral Monster?

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1312224724' post='2279820']
I'm not crying. But keep demonizing me. Keep it coming...[/quote]
I don't think it's demonizing you to say you're crying. I haven't demonized you at all. I did use cultist imagery, but it was tempered with some silliness so I don't think that can be stretched to demonization. I retract 'crying' and leave nothing in its place as a continuance of my argument.

[quote]Now you're just being funny.
[/quote]
Again, agreement.

[Guest]

Death is just that. Death. Everybody dies. Its where you spend eternity at in the next life that matters. If innocent lives werre taken God more then made up for it in eternity. Because God is good. Humans are bad. Evil. Even those who speak for Him. Humans are lucky God didn't throw us all under the bus. But instead He died on the cross for us so we could be found innocent. Lucky us.

Edited August 1, 2011 by Guest

[ceciliatherese]

This whole thread really disturbs me. Do you guys realize what you're saying? You're saying that someone who ordered the murder, rape, pillaging, etc. of millions of people was okay in doing so. What if those victims had been your own family and friends? You all only seem to have on rose colored glasses and refuse to look at it as it is but decided to instead point fingers at the people who justly find a problem with humans being treated that way. It reminds me of a picture I once saw of some sign, that read "Thou shalt not kill. -God" and it itself was splattered with blood. It honestly makes me sick.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='ceciliatherese' timestamp='1314165758' post='2294142']
This whole thread really disturbs me. Do you guys realize what you're saying? You're saying that someone who ordered the murder, rape, pillaging, etc. of millions of people was okay in doing so. What if those victims had been your own family and friends? You all only seem to have on rose colored glasses and refuse to look at it as it is but decided to instead point fingers at the people who justly find a problem with humans being treated that way. It reminds me of a picture I once saw of some sign, that read "Thou shalt not kill. -God" and it itself was splattered with blood. It honestly makes me sick.
[/quote]
If it makes you feel any better I'm not a theological voluntarist and I think that this issue is largely one of hermeneutics.

[Papist]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1311316686' post='2273654']
Some thoughts for consideration.
[/quote]


Topic title is, Is God a Moral Monster? I can't answer until it is defined what a Moral Monster is, or what you define as a Moral Monster.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1314184721' post='2294158']


Topic title is, Is God a Moral Monster? I can't answer until it is defined what a Moral Monster is, or what you define as a Moral Monster.
[/quote]
Again, this is a split topic from a thread I made in transmundane by the same name. Why the name? It's the title of a book by Paul Copan which is more or less what the original thread was about. It wasn't a debate thread.

[url="http://www.amazon.com/God-Moral-Monster-Making-Testament/dp/0801072751"]Is God a Moral Monster?: Making Sense of the Old Testament God[/url]

[Papist]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1314209431' post='2294253']
Again, this is a split topic from a thread I made in transmundane by the same name. Why the name? It's the title of a book by Paul Copan which is more or less what the original thread was about. It wasn't a debate thread.

[url="http://www.amazon.com/God-Moral-Monster-Making-Testament/dp/0801072751"]Is God a Moral Monster?: Making Sense of the Old Testament God[/url]
[/quote]
Ooops.

[img]http://newhiptips.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/images.jpg[/img]

[Winchester]

[quote name='ceciliatherese' timestamp='1314165758' post='2294142']
This whole thread really disturbs me. Do you guys realize what you're saying? You're saying that someone who ordered the murder, rape, pillaging, etc. of millions of people was okay in doing so. What if those victims had been your own family and friends? You all only seem to have on rose colored glasses and refuse to look at it as it is but decided to instead point fingers at the people who justly find a problem with humans being treated that way. It reminds me of a picture I once saw of some sign, that read "Thou shalt not kill. -God" and it itself was splattered with blood. It honestly makes me sick.
[/quote]
I realize what I'm saying. If you believe morality has an existence independent of God, then it is possible for Him to act immorally. If you believe God created everything and that the moral order was created for humans, then it is impossible for God to act immorally.

After that, we may then argue about whether God is loving or not. But that's not the question (which was really a breathless bit of trollery/it'syourfaulti'mnotacatholicanymoreyoumeanymeanpersons).

Edited August 26, 2011 by Winchester

[ceciliatherese]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1314352349' post='2295146']
I realize what I'm saying. If you believe morality has an existence independent of God, then it is possible for Him to act immorally. If you believe God created everything and that the moral order was created for humans, then it is impossible for God to act immorally.

After that, we may then argue about whether God is loving or not. But that's not the question (which was really a breathless bit of trollery/it'syourfaulti'mnotacatholicanymoreyoumeanymeanpersons).
[/quote]


Well, since my opinion was only a 'breathless bit of trollery', I think we're done here, any further discussion would be pointless.

[ceciliatherese]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1314171677' post='2294147']
If it makes you feel any better I'm not a theological voluntarist and I think that this issue is largely one of hermeneutics.
[/quote]


Thanks for being civil Yeah, I guess it is. I mean, I love God. I love him very much, and throughout my life I'm just amazed that He's stuck with me for so long. It awes me. And I think He's very complex, and that we can never reach the point of fully understanding Him in this lifetime. BUT, He did give us a brain, an intellect. He made humans a bunch of very curious, very nosy, creatures who are always asking 'why' (which is okay). He's so humble that he actually wants us to love Him, and when we read in his book that he commanded something that we thought was immoral, I think he would want us to dig and dig until we can, to the best of our ability, know why, so that that doubt doesn't get in the way of us trying to love Him to the best of our ability. Personally, I wonder at the Passion and Death of Jesus Christ, and whenever I hear somebody say, "God ordered rape, He ordered genocide", etc. I try to look at it in light of the utterly baffling sacrifice of God on the cross. A God who died for screwed up creatures like us needs a reason to order stuff that we consider immoral. I think it's just our job to hunt out those reasons.
That's why it's frustrating to me to hear people just brush over it. Because it IS a big thing, and God wouldn't just order something like that because He can "Do anything' or something like that. It had to be for a bigger reason, a reason that should be within our reach, because he wouldn't put stuff like that in His book if we couldn't understand it. That would be pretty contradictory and would lead to a lot of confusion.
Anyway, sorry to ramble -.- I get caught up in this stuff. Hope you understood everything I said and I don't sound like a complete nutcase, haha.

[Winchester]

[quote name='ceciliatherese' timestamp='1314559448' post='2296410']


Well, since my opinion was only a 'breathless bit of trollery', I think we're done here, any further discussion would be pointless.
[/quote]
You're not the OP, so you didn't ask the question to which I'm referring. I answered your question with my first sentence, then paraphrased my position and then proceeded to evaluate [i]the [/i]question, which was, if you know the OP, just more drama. Sorry I wasn't clear.

[ceciliatherese]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1314560140' post='2296420']
You're not the OP, so you didn't ask the question to which I'm referring. I answered your question with my first sentence, then paraphrased my position and then proceeded to evaluate [i]the [/i]question, which was, if you know the OP, just more drama. Sorry I wasn't clear.
[/quote]
Oh okay, it's all good.

[havok579257]

[quote name='ceciliatherese' timestamp='1314165758' post='2294142']
This whole thread really disturbs me. Do you guys realize what you're saying? You're saying that someone who ordered the murder, rape, pillaging, etc. of millions of people was okay in doing so. What if those victims had been your own family and friends? You all only seem to have on rose colored glasses and refuse to look at it as it is but decided to instead point fingers at the people who justly find a problem with humans being treated that way. It reminds me of a picture I once saw of some sign, that read "Thou shalt not kill. -God" and it itself was splattered with blood. It honestly makes me sick.
[/quote]

God is the source of all good. everything he does is good and just and right. if we don't understand it and think its immoral,that's our fault,not his. we are the ones with the inferior intellect, not God. whatever God does he is just and right in doing so. when your the creator of all life, you do so as you wish.

[ceciliatherese]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1314626507' post='2296870']

God is the source of all good. everything he does is good and just and right. if we don't understand it and think its immoral,that's our fault,not his. we are the ones with the inferior intellect, not God. whatever God does he is just and right in doing so. when your the creator of all life, you do so as you wish.
[/quote]

That's great that you have such faith. Personally for me, and for many, many others, we feel the need to dig deeper and understand Him and his actions more fully, so the we can know and love Him more. I commend you for being able to just accept actions, but I cant, especially since I know people who have suffered lots, and I need to know the reason for that, as best as I can.

[Winchester]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1314626507' post='2296870']

God is the source of all good. everything he does is good and just and right. if we don't understand it and think its immoral,that's our fault,not his. we are the ones with the inferior intellect, not God. whatever God does he is just and right in doing so. when your the creator of all life, you do so as you wish.
[/quote]
God made morality for man. It does not exist without Him. What is good is to obey God.