Is God A Moral Monster?

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1312035629' post='2278470']


You argued previously that it was impossible for god to be evil, because god is the good. Now you seem to be implying that it is possible to qualify god as evil? But why can the creator not be evil or malevolent? Why can't the bible be faulty?
[/quote]
The Creator cannot be evil because nothing exists outside of Him. Morality is His creation, and He is not subordinated to it.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1311485459' post='2274750']In order for the God of the Bible to be evil, He would have to be a liar. Else He is the creator and thus cannot be evil.
[/quote][quote][url="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/1kg/22.html#23"]1 Kings 22:23[/url]
Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

[url="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/2chr/18.html#22"]2 Chronicles 18:22[/url]
Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.

[url="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/jer/4.html#10"]Jeremiah 4:10[/url]
Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.

[url="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/jer/20.html#7"]Jeremiah 20:7[/url]
O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived.

[url="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ezek/14.html#9"]Ezekiel 14:9[/url]
And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.

[url="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/2th/2.html#11"]2 Thessalonians 2:11[/url]
For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. [/quote][quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312036551' post='2278478']
The Creator cannot be evil because nothing exists outside of Him. Morality is His creation, and He is not subordinated to it.[/quote]So which is it? Can "god" be evil or not? If your qualification is true, then the examples from [b]"[url="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/god_lie.html"]Does God lie?[/url]"[/b] are completely relevant.

Unless you retract the first claim, this seems to be double speak.

Edited July 30, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Winchester]

An action evil for a creature would still not be evil for a Creator. A Creator would not be subject to the moral order He created. I'm not using Christian apologetics, here. I already explained to you the context of my statement. You Bible stuff doesn't apply. I have not made any arguments about either the Christian or Jewish God.

But regarding the work you're citing, have you spoken with any rabbis to understand the context of the Jewish literature you're reading? I mean, it was written by Jews and they might know a bit about it.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312040087' post='2278495']An action evil for a creature would still not be evil for a Creator. A Creator would not be subject to the moral order He created. I'm not using Christian apologetics, here.[/quote]But WHY is an evil action for a creator NOT evil? You are making a contradictory, circular, and vague argument. You might as well reply with, "[i]Because God said so.[/i]"[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312040087' post='2278495']I already explained to you the context of my statement. You Bible stuff doesn't apply. I have not made any arguments about either the Christian or Jewish God.[/quote]You didn't explain, you directly contradicted it...

You wrote, "[b][u]In order for the God of the Bible to be evil[/u], He would have to be a liar.[/b]" Which is why I posted the verses about the "god of the bible" being deceptive. Then you wrote, "[b]The Creator [u]cannot be evil[/u] because nothing exists outside of Him.[/b]" So I will assume you are retracting the previous statement. Which implies that even if "the god of the bible" is deceptive or a liar, it doesn't matter.

But out of curiosity, is the god of the bible not the god of Christianity?[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312040087' post='2278495']But regarding the work you're citing, have you spoken with any rabbis to understand the context of the Jewish literature you're reading? I mean, it was written by Jews and they might know a bit about it.[/quote]So because you don't have an answer, you tell me to look elsewhere? Right...

Should I also trust the "rabbis" on 2 Thessalonians 2:11? Because I'm sure they would tell me that its a Christian scripture? I love Catholics, telling me to go to Jews for questions about Christianity! Next I will ask Baptists about the Rosary!

Edited July 30, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1312044675' post='2278524']
But WHY is an evil action for a creator NOT evil? You are making a contradictory, circular, and vague argument. You might as well reply with, "[i]Because God said so.[/i]"[/quote]
You summed up the argument perfectly.

[quote]You didn't explain, you directly contradicted it...

You wrote, "[b][u]In order for the God of the Bible to be evil[/u], He would have to be a liar.[/b]" Which is why I posted the verses about the "god of the bible" being deceptive. Then you wrote, "[b]The Creator [u]cannot be evil[/u] because nothing exists outside of Him.[/b]" So I will assume you are retracting the previous statement. Which implies that even if "the god of the bible" is deceptive or a liar, it doesn't matter.[/quote]
I was vague. He would have to be lying about being the Creator. In the Christian scheme, evil is that which is against the Will of God. If He decides to deceive, that's in accord with his Will. Thus, according to Christians, it's good.

[quote]But out of curiosity, is the god of the bible not the god of Christianity?So because you don't have an answer, you tell me to look elsewhere? Right...[/quote]
The Christians seem to think He is.

[quote]Should I also trust the "rabbis" on 2 Thessalonians 2:11? Because I'm sure they would tell me that its a Christian scripture? I love Catholics, telling me to go to Jews for questions about Christianity! Next I will ask Baptists about the Rosary!
[/quote]
Sorry. I didn't pay too much attention to your proof-texts. Yeah, go to a Catholic priest for any NT stuff. Do I really need to micromanage you like that?




Are you proposing that morality exists outside of God?

Edited July 30, 2011 by Winchester

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312047828' post='2278539']You summed up the argument perfectly.[/quote]So you admit you are making an appeal to special pleading and authority. You lost.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312047828' post='2278539']I was vague. He would have to be lying about being the Creator. In the Christian scheme, evil is that which is against the Will of God. If He decides to deceive, that's in accord with his Will. Thus, according to Christians, it's good.[/quote]You were not vague. I accept your retraction, that somehow "god" lying would make him evil. But this means there is no consistency or objectivity to your morality, it is completely arbitrary and illogical. Also possibly that you admit your god is deceptive?

I hope you realize that morals would exist without Christians? Christians don't somehow own morality. [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312047828' post='2278539']The Christians seem to think He is.[/quote]So another retraction, you were making an argument about the Christian god. Thank you![quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312047828' post='2278539']Sorry. I didn't pay too much attention to your proof-texts. Yeah, go to a Catholic priest for any NT stuff. Do I really need to micromanage you like that?[/quote]No... But I would like to imagine you actually READ what is written. Maybe I'm wrong? I wouldn't want someone who doesn't read managing my life... or anything for that matter.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312047828' post='2278539']Are you proposing that morality exists outside of God?[/quote]A piece of Christian morality, as directed by Jesus, "[color=#ff0000]But as for those my enemies, who would not have me reign over them, bring them hither, and kill them before me.[/color]" If you were a moral person, you would be following your god's morals!

But yes... I propose that morality is not dependent on a god, that "divine command" model of ethics is insufficient, contradictory, and unverifiable. Ultimately it is people who decide what morality is, even if it is from a supposed "god".

Edited July 30, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1312048969' post='2278546']
So you admit you are making an appeal to special pleading and authority. You lost.[/quote]
I'm restating a simple philosophical fact. You create the game, you create the rules. Unless morality has an existence of itself, without God, then it is subject to Him, not He to it.

[quote]I accept your retraction, that somehow "god" lying would make him evil. But this means there is no consistency or objectivity to your morality, it is completely arbitrary and illogical. Also possibly that you admit your god is deceptive?[/quote]
No. In order for God to be evil, He would have to not be the Creator. He has claimed to be the Creator. If [i]that [/i]were a lie, it would be possible for the God in the Bible to be evil. If morality existed prior to God, he might have created most of the universe, but not those moral laws which pre-existed Him. I take from the whole of the Bible that God lays claim to the creation of the moral order. Is there a passage where He claims otherwise.

[quote]I hope you realize that morals would exist without Christians? Christians don't somehow own morality. So another retraction, you were making an argument about the Christian god. Thank you!No... But I would like to imagine you actually READ what is written. Maybe I'm wrong? I wouldn't want someone who doesn't read managing my life... or anything for that matter.A piece of Christian morality, as directed by Jesus, "[color=#ff0000]But as for those my enemies, who would not have me reign over them, bring them hither, and kill them before me.[/color]" If you were a moral person, you would be following your god's morals!

But yes... I propose that morality is not dependent on a god, that "divine command" model of ethics is insufficient, contradictory, and unverifiable. Ultimately it is people who decide what morality is, even if it is from a supposed "god".
[/quote]
So morality is your really real, eternal being. It exists independent of perception. In your order, "God" would be subject to morality and morality would not be a creature.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312049794' post='2278550']I'm restating a simple [s]philosophical fact[/s] theological belief.[/quote]Fixed.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312049794' post='2278550']You create the game, you create the rules. Unless morality has an existence of itself, without God, then it is subject to Him, not He to it.[/quote]So you are fine with a subjective, arbitrary, contradictory, and illogical model of ethics? What would happen if you didn't believe in god? Would you become a monster yourself? If so, please keep your faith.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312049794' post='2278550']No. In order for God to be evil, He would have to not be the Creator. He has claimed to be the Creator. If [i]that [/i]were a lie, it would be possible for the God in the Bible to be evil. If morality existed prior to God, he might have created most of the universe, but not those moral laws which pre-existed Him. I take from the whole of the Bible that God lays claim to the creation of the moral order. Is there a passage where He claims otherwise.[/quote]You can't prove the existence of your god or that it created anything. Even if there was a god, you can't prove that it is your god. What if the Islamic god is true? Would that mean that they are morally justified? According to you, yes.


[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312049794' post='2278550']So morality is your really real, eternal being. It exists independent of perception. In your order, "God" would be subject to morality and morality would not be a creature.[/quote]Morals are just rules about behavior. It's not some kind of special external being, that exists independent of perception.

In reality, there is no god. But I'm sure if there was, he would be glad to have a friend like you to defend him from skepticism or criticism about those millions of people he had killed. But not so pleased that you aren't killing his enemies as he commanded you in Luke 19:27!

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1312050611' post='2278557']
Fixed.[/quote]
Plato is not theology. The philosopher's god is not really theology.

[quote]So you are fine with a subjective, arbitrary, contradictory, and illogical model of ethics? What would happen if you didn't believe in god? Would you become a monster yourself? If so, please keep your faith.You can't prove the existence of your god or that it created anything. Even if there was a god, you can't prove that it is your god. What if the Islamic god is true? Would that mean that they are morally justified? According to you, yes.[/quote]
The Good would also not be arbitrary. If there are not actual Forms, then everything is shadow on the wall. "Monster" would have no real meaning. I could define anyone as a monster, and it would have as much meaning as any other definition for any other set of reasons. The arbitrary can only exist if there is an eternal truth. And yeah, it would mean that. Was I supposed to freak out and take the illogical position that the creature is above the Creator?

In this argument, I have not attempted to prove the existence of any God, I have merely outlined for you how your belief that God is evil would be possible, assuming He existed and is the God of the Bible.

[quote]Morals are just rules about behavior. It's not some kind of special external being, that exists independent of perception.

In reality, there is no god. But I'm sure if there was, he would be glad to have a friend like you to defend him from skepticism or criticism about those millions of people he had killed. But not so pleased that you aren't killing his enemies as he commanded you in Luke 19:27!
[/quote]
Did you buy a bunch of exclamation points on sale? I've heard they last forever, like Twinkies.

So what are you arguing is the origin of morality?

Edited July 30, 2011 by Winchester

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312051005' post='2278563']Plato is not theology. The philosopher's god is not really theology.[/quote]I doubt Plato would agree with you. But you are asserting theological beliefs so far, unless you can demonstrate otherwise. Why are you so resistant to verifying your claims? Do you think claiming something makes it true?[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312051005' post='2278563']The Good would also not be arbitrary. If there are not actual Forms, then everything is shadow on the wall. "Monster" would have no real meaning. I could define anyone as a monster, and it would have as much meaning as any other definition for any other set of reasons. The arbitrary can only exist if there is an eternal truth.[/quote]The answer to that is, YES. You claim god exists and anything you claim god says is moral. Truth![quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312051005' post='2278563']Did you buy a bunch of exclamation points on sale? I've heard they last forever, like Twinkies.[/quote]Are you changing your arguments, ignoring questions, not refuting arguments, and not supporting your claims. Yes, yes you are.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312051005' post='2278563']So what are you arguing is the origin of morality?[/quote]Not Christianity, since it existed before Christians came around. But why let history get in the way of your beliefs?

Since this topic is not about the origin of morals, it is about the horrifying violence and killing found in the Bible, commanded and conducted by god. However since you are claiming that "divine command" somehow works, thus god is somehow exempt from his no killing and charity commands... also those who obeyed god's call for death and violence. This is moral to you. I suppose I can't change your mind about it.

So will you concede that Muslims are moral people for obeying their god's command to kill infidels? Yes?

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1312051769' post='2278570']
I doubt Plato would agree with you. But you are asserting theological beliefs so far, unless you can demonstrate otherwise. Why are you so resistant to verifying your claims? Do you think claiming something makes it true?[/quote]
Where have I contradicted Plato's argument about The Good, or the nature of what is really real?

[quote]The answer to that is, YES. You claim god exists and anything you claim god says is moral. Truth![/quote]
I've never said that anything I say God said is moral.

[quote]Are you changing your arguments, ignoring questions, not refuting arguments, and not supporting your claims. Yes, yes you are.[/quote]
I have explained to you the very specific terms of my refutation that a Creator can be evil, assuming he created morality and that it does not exist outside of the creator. I have covered how this would apply to the Christian God.

[quote]Not Christianity, since it existed before Christians came around. But why let history get in the way of your beliefs?



Since this topic is not about the origin of morals, it is about the horrifying violence and killing found in the Bible, commanded and conducted by god. However since you are claiming that "divine command" somehow works, thus god is somehow exempt from his no killing and charity commands... also those who obeyed god's call for death and violence. This is moral to you. I suppose I can't change your mind about it.[/quote]
The origin of morality cannot be separated from the question of whether God is moral or not. To my knowledge, no moral law was ever given to God in the Bible. He laid those laws down on his creatures.

If you're going to list all the not-origins of morality, this will be a long thread indeed.

[quote]So will you concede that Muslims are moral people for obeying their god's command to kill infidels? Yes?
[/quote]
If morality is defined by the beliefs of the individual, then one becomes moral or immoral by his own decision. If morality exists outside of man and is unchanged by his opinions or circumstances, then the Muslims would only be moral if they were in fact adhering to an objective real morality. If the morality of the Muslims has originated in a single man and does not conform to an eternal morality, then they would be at odds with that morality and thus immoral.

Edited July 30, 2011 by Winchester

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312052673' post='2278584']Where have I contradicted Plato's argument about The Good, or the nature of what is really real?[/quote]I doubt Plato would approve of Christian theology, he would most likely see it as another human made religion. Where their gods are just as human and criminal as we are. But if you could source Plato to verify your claims, that would help.

Though surely you realize that would then make it only a philosophical opinion. Maybe not though...[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312052673' post='2278584']I've never said that anything I say God said is moral.[/quote]Not what I wrote, "anything you claim god says". Subtle distinction.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312052673' post='2278584']I have explained to you the very specific terms of my refutation that a Creator can be evil, assuming he created morality and that it does not exist outside of the creator. I have covered how this would apply to the Christian God.[/quote]No... you haven't. What you have done is called "special pleading", it's an informal logic fallacy.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312052673' post='2278584']The origin of morality cannot be separated from the question of whether God is moral or not.[/quote]Yes it can and it is all the time. Except by religious fanatics. [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312052673' post='2278584']To my knowledge, no moral law was ever given to God in the Bible. He laid those laws down on his creatures.[/quote]Which apparently he contradicts on whim.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312052673' post='2278584']If you're going to list all the not-origins of morality, this will be a long thread indeed.[/quote]I just assumed you read me before writing "[b]Ultimately it is people who decide what morality is, even if it is from a supposed 'god'.[/b]" But I would also assume our sense of morality has evolved with us and is apart of our neurology.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312052673' post='2278584']If morality is defined by the beliefs of the individual, then one becomes moral or immoral by his own decision. If morality exists outside of man and is unchanged by his opinions or circumstances, then the Muslims would only be moral if they were in fact adhering to an objective real morality. If the morality of the Muslims has originated in a single man and does not conform to an eternal morality, then they would be at odds with that morality and thus immoral.[/quote]Killing has always and everywhere been generally accepted as wrong. So by your standard, your bible and god is at odds with eternity and morality.

But yes an individual chooses for themselves what they will believe or accept... or if they will act on those beliefs. Since believing a code of morals does not guarantee that they will be moral.

The problem you encounter is that believing in your god as a source of morals is subjective, not objective. If you stopped believing in your god, you could no longer accept that god as a source of morals. It is contingent on your belief in this god and this faith that he is the supreme arbiter of right and wrong.

Edited July 30, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[stevil]

If god speaks to you in your head. You hear His voice and you KNOW it is Him and He tells you to kill a person or many people, do you take Abraham's example and trust in the Lord and to the best of your ability attempt to kill these people?

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1312053740' post='2278592']
. What you have done is called "special pleading", it's an informal logic fallacy.
[/quote]
You don't think there's a difference between man and God?

Edited July 31, 2011 by Winchester

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312071770' post='2278747']You don't think there's a difference between man and God?[/quote]What you are arguing is like this.

Person X claims O is wrong on grounds of A.
Person X has done O.
Person X is exempt from A.

This is a classic form of special pleading. It doesn't matter if you throw in that your god is a "super-god". Logically, it is still an informal logic fallacy. If you don't understand then I cannot help you.