Is God A Moral Monster?

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1319492424' post='2326428'] I already have the truth, it was revealed by God himself when he led me to the Catholic Church.[/quote]

Since the time of early Catholicism up to this present time, Catholics learned all of their knowledge not directly from God but from their teachers whom they believe to be chosen by God, and everything is accepted by faith. But they did not give too much attention on Apostle Paul’s warning that there are some preachers who preach other Jesus different from the Jesus they preached even during his time. (2 Cor 11:4, Gal 1:6-9)
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In my previous post, I am always saying ‘Christ is the mystery of God and only God can reveal him. No one can reveal him - even witnesses and writers of the scriptures although they testify about him – except God alone. ’ While the Jesus you are proclaiming can be 'revealed' by man thru faith and that is your historical Jesus.

Edited October 27, 2011 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1319487752' post='2326391']
Sorry, but what you have presented is illogical. I would like to ask you then if the limbo of the fathers is not true then how does God save the innocent who have not been baptised? But I fear we are way off topic maybe you would like to start a thread. Let me know if you do.
[/quote]

How babies are saved? Okay. I will answer that.


It is written in Luke 6:37-38

37 "Do not judge , and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
NIV

Now, do babies have knowledge of anything? Of course, they have none. It only means. They cannot judge and therefore, they will not be judged. They cannot condemn therefore they will not be condemned. They do not know how to forgive therefore they do not know how to ask for forgiveness. They do not give therefore they do not receive. In short, they are all at rest. Because, they do not have any measurement to measure themselves.

Do you think, it is not logical?

Edited October 28, 2011 by reyb

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319756394' post='2327947']
Since the time of early Catholicism up to this present time, Catholics learned all of their knowledge not directly from God but from their teachers whom they believe to be chosen by God, and everything is accepted by faith. But they did not give too much attention on Apostle Paul’s warning that there are some preachers who preach other Jesus different from the Jesus they preached even during his time. (2 Cor 11:4, Gal 1:6-9)
In my previous post, I am always saying ‘Christ is the mystery of God and only God can reveal him. No one can reveal him - even witnesses and writers of the scriptures although they testify about him – except God alone. ’ While the Jesus you are proclaiming can be 'revealed' by man thru faith and that is your historical Jesus.
[/quote]
Jesus is God in his human form come to teach us humans how to become one with God. He reveals himself in infinite ways to those who love him. The seeds that fall on the fertile soil produce bountiful fruit.
Did you know that faith is not at odds with reason but is dependant on it. Throughout life a person has certain experiences, I was taught about God and his historical son. These things fit together like a hand and a glove. I believe the Bible because it fits with my inner most feelings and senses. The only thing that is certain is 'I think, therefore I am.' Everything else requires faith. The Bible and it's writings of the witnesses of Jesus are so profound and logical that I believe they must be true because no one is clever enough to make such logical teachings based on fallacy. Throughout your posts we see time and again the mention of Apostle Paul. How do you have so much faith in a man that was not the witness of Jesus, but was converted through faith. Conversion of people such as myself are prolly not described so colourfully, but never the less they are much the same.


[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319760677' post='2327963']
It is written in Luke 6:37-38

37Do not judge , and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
NIV
[/quote]
This applies to those who can judge, can condemn, or can forgive. You cannot be judged innocent or guilty of something of which you are not capable. That is why only God can judge because only God knows what a persons capability is.


[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319760677' post='2327963']
How babies are saved? Okay. I will answer that.

Now, do babies have knowledge of anything? Of course, they have none. It only means. They cannot judge and therefore, they will not be judged. They cannot condemn therefore they will not be condemned. They do not know how to forgive therefore they do not know how to ask for forgiveness. They do not give therefore they do not receive. In short, they are all at rest. Because, they do not have any measurement to measure themselves.

Do you think, it is not logical?
[/quote]
You seem to be implying that an un-baptised baby ceases to exist. This is highly illogical because baptism does not endow anyone with abilities to judge etc. What you are saying is that a baby that got baptised because it was the in thing to the parents and to have a reason for a party goes to God but a neglected child on 'Smokey Mountain' is doomed. And you have also omitted to explain how those before baptism was taught and those who do not know about it but would if they knew its importance are saved?

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319745009' post='2327830']
Faith has no power to reveal the Christ of God. By faith anyone can claim he is holding the truth but, truth are meant to be known and not to believe. No matter how strong a man’s faith is, he cannot change a lie to become truth because, faith has no power against the truth.
[/quote]
That's not true. No creed is perfect, most people worship God in different ways. Many Catholics believe that they should accept without question everything the Church teaches but this must be wrong because faith without reason is not faith it is foolishness that's how many fall to false teachings. But whether your faith by reason is true or only partly true does not matter. God will not judge you on what has not been revealed to you.

[quote]Unless you become a true witness of God - hearing and seeing God directly – only then Christ will be revealed.[/quote]
Jesus whole purpose was to reveal God to man who could not see him otherwise. IMO your conclusions are quite obviously wrong, you would be better to follow the flock.

Edited October 28, 2011 by Mark of the Cross

[reyb]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319760677' post='2327963']

How babies are saved? Okay. I will answer that.


It is written in Luke 6:37-38

37 "Do not judge , and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
NIV

Now, do babies have knowledge of anything? Of course, they have none. It only means. They cannot judge and therefore, they will not be judged. They cannot condemn therefore they will not be condemned. They do not know how to forgive therefore they do not know how to ask for forgiveness. They do not give therefore they do not receive. In short, they are all at rest. Because, they do not have any measurement to measure themselves.

Do you think, it is not logical?
[/quote]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1319774454' post='2328064']
You seem to be implying that an un-baptised baby ceases to exist. This is highly illogical because baptism does not endow anyone with abilities to judge etc. What you are saying is that a baby that got baptised because it was the in thing to the parents and to have a reason for a party goes to God but a neglected child on 'Smokey Mountain' is doomed. And you have also omitted to explain how those before baptism was taught and those who do not know about it but would if they knew its importance are saved?
[/quote]

When I said ‘babies’, I really mean, ‘all babies’, It does not matter whether they are Christians, Islam, Buddhist or whatever, whether they are baptized or not in accordance with your sacraments or whatever rituals. All of your rituals are just ‘traditions of man’. I thought you believe that God is righteous. Do you really think there is righteousness in punishing them in hell if their parents refused to follow your teachings?

Now, regarding grown-ups like you….we will discuss it later if you have no other questions regarding babies. Okay?

Edited October 28, 2011 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1319774454' post='2328064']
Throughout your posts we see time and again the mention of Apostle Paul. How do you have so much faith in a man that was not the witness of Jesus, but was converted through faith. Conversion of people such as myself are prolly not described so colourfully, but never the less they are much the same.
[/quote]

It is written in 1 Cor 9:1-2 (Apostle Paul said)....9:1 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not the result of my work in the Lord? 2 Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you! For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

Just to refresh your memory regarding Apostle Paul. Do you really think Apostle did not see Jesus Christ? (see Acts 9:5). Now, if you are referring to your historical Jesus, I am sure he is not. .

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319778380' post='2328088']



When I said ‘babies’, I really mean, ‘all babies’, It does not matter whether they are Christians, Islam, Buddhist or whatever, whether they are baptized or not in accordance with your sacraments or whatever rituals. All of your rituals are just ‘traditions of man’. I thought you believe that God is righteous. [b]Do you really think there is righteousness in punishing them in hell if their parents refused to follow your teachings?[/b]

Now, regarding grown-ups like you….we will discuss it later if you have no other questions regarding babies. Okay?
[/quote]
You're really confused here. At death Jesus went to the abode of the dead, Limbo of the fathers or whatever you like to call it and he baptised and brought to eternal life all Gods chosen people, [u]the righteous[/u]! Now there was no such thing as Catholics at that time, so what people are we taliking about? We are talking about [b]all people of many faiths[/b], the good Samaritan etc. Currently the Catholic Church teaches the possibility of salvation for all people as long as they are members of the universal church, which is those people who live in the spirit of Christ, know him in their souls colloquially heart , whether they have head knowledge of historical Jesus or not. This includes Islam, Buddhism, agnostics. God created all humans with the possibility of salvation. But Baptism is essential for salvation so for these people including unbaptised infants, we have 'baptism of desire' where all these good people would have chosen Baptism had they known it's importance. This IMO makes God as moral and compassionate and fair and logical as it is possible to be. It is you who has denied such things. I am somewhat offended by your accusations in bold. We don't do that! I think you've been misled by talking to the wrong kind of 'Catholics'!

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319780411' post='2328092']

It is written in 1 Cor 9:1-2 (Apostle Paul said)....9:1 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not the result of my work in the Lord? 2 Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you! For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

Just to refresh your memory regarding Apostle Paul. Do you really think Apostle did not see Jesus Christ? (see Acts 9:5). Now, if you are referring to your historical Jesus, I am sure he is not. .
[/quote]
Apostle Paul is no different than the rest of us except that God had a very special mission for him and thus he became Saint. He was not a direct witness of historical Jesus but having heard about him and his teachings, his faith instilled by the Holy Spirit became based on reason of the witness of historical Jesus. And thus he sees Jesus in himself. Your faith seems to deny the witness of historical Jesus and is therefore based on your own interpretations of scripture mainly apostle Paul who was not a witness. Therefore your faith is not based on reason and this is why you have gone astray.

Edited October 28, 2011 by Mark of the Cross

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1319836149' post='2328298']
Apostle Paul is no different than the rest of us except that God had a very special mission for him and thus he became Saint. He was not a direct witness of historical Jesus but having heard about him and his teachings, his faith instilled by the Holy Spirit became based on reason of the witness of historical Jesus. And thus he sees Jesus in himself. Your faith seems to deny the witness of historical Jesus and is therefore based on your own interpretations of scripture mainly apostle Paul who was not a witness. Therefore your faith is not based on reason and this is why you have gone astray.
[/quote]

So you are saying 'Paul is not an eyewitness of historical Jesus but, because of his faith and holy spirit he sees Jesus in himself'. Do I get it right?

Edited October 28, 2011 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1319836149' post='2328298']
You're really confused here. At death Jesus went to the abode of the dead, Limbo of the fathers or whatever you like to call it and he baptised and brought to eternal life all Gods chosen people, [u]the righteous[/u]! Now there was no such thing as Catholics at that time, so what people are we taliking about? We are talking about [b]all people of many faiths[/b], the good Samaritan etc. Currently the Catholic Church teaches the possibility of salvation for all people as long as they are members of the universal church, which is those people who live in the spirit of Christ, know him in their souls colloquially heart , whether they have head knowledge of historical Jesus or not. This includes Islam, Buddhism, agnostics. God created all humans with the possibility of salvation. But Baptism is essential for salvation so for these people including unbaptised infants, we have 'baptism of desire' where all these good people would have chosen Baptism had they known it's importance. This IMO makes God as moral and compassionate and fair and logical as it is possible to be. It is you who has denied such things. I am somewhat offended by your accusations in bold. We don't do that! I think you've been misled by talking to the wrong kind of 'Catholics'!
[/quote]

We are talking about babies. We are not yet discussing about grown-ups. Anyway...

Questions:
1. Who told you that there is limbo?
2. Can you consider a righteous or morally upright man having 'baptism of desire' even if he totally rejected your sacrament of baptism and an unbeliever?

Edited October 28, 2011 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1319836149' post='2328298']
You're really confused here. At death Jesus went to the abode of the dead, Limbo of the fathers or whatever you like to call it and he baptised and brought to eternal life all Gods chosen people, [u]the righteous[/u]! Now there was no such thing as Catholics at that time, so what people are we taliking about? We are talking about [b]all people of many faiths[/b], the good Samaritan etc. Currently the Catholic Church teaches the possibility of salvation for all people as long as they are members of the universal church, which is those people who live in the spirit of Christ, know him in their souls colloquially heart , whether they have head knowledge of historical Jesus or not. This includes Islam, Buddhism, agnostics. God created all humans with the possibility of salvation. But Baptism is essential for salvation so for these people including unbaptised infants, we have 'baptism of desire' where all these good people would have chosen Baptism had they known it's importance. This IMO makes God as moral and compassionate and fair and logical as it is possible to be. It is you who has denied such things. I am somewhat offended by your accusations in bold. We don't do that! I think you've been misled by talking to the wrong kind of 'Catholics'!
[/quote]
We are talking about babies. We are not yet discussing about grown-ups. Anyway...

Questions:
1. Who told you that there is limbo?
2. Can you consider a righteous or morally upright man having 'baptism of desire' even he totally rejected your sacrament of baptism and an unbeliever?

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319839415' post='2328327']

So you are saying 'Paul is not an eyewitness of historical Jesus but, because of his faith and holy spirit he sees Jesus in himself'. Do I get it right?
[/quote]
Yay!

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319844260' post='2328368']
We are talking about babies. We are not yet discussing about grown-ups. Anyway...

Questions:
1. Who told you that there is limbo?

[/quote]
It's in the Apostles creed! When you're asleep you're in limbo, I think. When you're dead you're in limbo unless Jesus brings you to life. It concurs with apostles creed of Jesus bringing to life the Church fathers. It's consistent and logical, therefore I believe with faith, but based on reason of the witness of the [b]many[/b] apostles, the determination of [b]many [/b]theologans and my own intuition. I don't believe small groups or individuals that claim to know more than them.

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319844260' post='2328368']
We are talking about babies. We are not yet discussing about grown-ups. Anyway...

Questions:

2. Can you consider a righteous or morally upright man having 'baptism of desire' even he totally rejected your sacrament of baptism and an unbeliever?
[/quote]
That's a contradiction of terms! A person cannot have baptism of desire (would have had it if you had known its importance) and have rejected baptism and be an unbeliever. If a person rejects baptism it means they know about it and its importance, but wilfully reject it. In this case they are not righteous and it does not matter how moral they are. I fear such people are lost.

[reyb]

Your answer to my previous question....
[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319839415' post='2328327']

So you are saying 'Paul is not an eyewitness of historical Jesus but, because of his faith and holy spirit he sees Jesus in himself'. Do I get it right?
[/quote]


is....
[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1319848790' post='2328385']
Yay!
[/quote]

Are you saying Nay or Aye? Is it 'yes' or' no'?. Can you make it clear? please?

Edited November 2, 2011 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1319848790' post='2328385']
It's in the Apostles creed! When you're asleep you're in limbo, I think. When you're dead you're in limbo unless Jesus brings you to life. It concurs with apostles creed of Jesus bringing to life the Church fathers. It's consistent and logical, therefore I believe with faith, but based on reason of the witness of the [b]many[/b] apostles, the determination of [b]many [/b]theologans and my own intuition. I don't believe small groups or individuals that claim to know more than them.
[/quote]


The idea of Limbo is against the principle of assurance of salvation.

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1319848790' post='2328385']
That's a contradiction of terms! A person cannot have baptism of desire (would have had it if you had known its importance) and have rejected baptism and be an unbeliever. If a person rejects baptism it means they know about it and its importance, but wilfully reject it. In this case they are not righteous and it does not matter how moral they are. I fear such people are lost.
[/quote]


Let me make my statement clearer. There are Muslims who are good and religious people. Now, can you consider them having this ‘baptism of desire’ considering they totally rejected your sacrament of baptism?

[Mark of the Cross]

It screwed up. I'll post later when I sort it out

Edited November 2, 2011 by Mark of the Cross

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1320194304' post='2330008']

Are you saying Nay or Aye? Is it 'yes' or' no'?. Can you make it clear? please?
[/quote]

Yay is generally considered to be an exclamation of joy in which there was agreement or like of what was read.

this is wiki but I think it is accurate enough

[quote]Paul's conversion occurred after Jesus crucifixion, and the accounts of Paul's conversion experience describe it as miraculous, supernatural, or otherwise revelatory in nature[/quote]


I assume from this that Paul was not a witness to the historical Jesus, but was fertile ground for the 'seed of the sower' and his faith blossomed from an extraordinary encounter with God=Holy Spirit=Jesus. Jesus said "I will live in you if you live in me!" He also asks us to reveal him through ourselves. How can we show others if we can't see Jesus in ourselves?

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1320194495' post='2330012']


The idea of Limbo is against the principle of assurance of salvation.
[/quote]



How's so? When I have already explained how logical it is Captain. Jesus said "No one comes to the father except through me!" Those before him had to await his coming, those after await his second coming.