Is God A Moral Monster?

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1319300934' post='2325191']
I'm not sure how arguing about rain helps anyone?

And [b]reyb[/b], surely you know that the reason the Psalmist calls the man who does not believe in God a 'fool' is because he thinks his evil actions will have no consequences?

Psalm 14:

[/left][left](Psalm 53 is very similar to this)[/left][left]In other words...they're fools because they are wicked. If an atheist were seeking to do the right thing, to be an upright and just man, this passage wouldn't apply to him...do you agree?[/left]



[/quote]
Sometimes I wonder if Rey is Trolling us! I don't think Stevil is attaining anything unless he has bulk time to waste on where rain comes from. And if you don't believe in Thor then there's every chance you won't believe in Thors hammer.

Edited October 22, 2011 by Mark of the Cross

[stevil]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319295571' post='2325141']
[color=#222222][font=Arial]And you do not have a kind of belief in the existence or non-existence of God because you do not understand the clear definition of God.[/font][/color]
[/quote]
You certainly have an unusual approach to communications, I guess you enjoy riddles.

From what I have seen, there is no clear definition of what a god is and how we would recognise one if we were to encounter it. The bible talks of a personality but doesn't describe what a god is and why that personality is a god.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1319316883' post='2325282']
You certainly have an unusual approach to communications, I guess you enjoy riddles.

From what I have seen, there is no clear definition of what a god is and how we would recognise one if we were to encounter it. The bible talks of a personality but doesn't describe what a god is and why that personality is a god.
[/quote]
God is the beginning and end of all things. I once asked the question could God change the laws of logic. The answer, logic is Gods nature and God does not change. God is certain things including love and logic. God also created things through the logic of science which is his nature. From science and natural logic God created the earth and made man in his image. His image is not how he looks but is his nature. All the good characteristics of humans is what God is. Man by free choice was seduced by evil but evil is not something it is the absence of good which is the absence of God. This might not make much sense because it is very hard to describe God. How could you describe a box if you lived on the inside and had never seen the box in its entirety. The common atheist view of God being a grumpy arrogant old man sitting on a throne demanding people bow down to him and worship him is about as remote to a true description as you can get.

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1319315036' post='2325270']

I believe your post is in dispute! And I'm not going through all that loopy nonsense again. From what I can gather the only thing your post disputes is the word Limbo. The Apostolic teaching which is dogmatic is that at death Jesus descended into 'Hell'. I believe this was actually he descended into the nether world. The nether world = lower world= the grave. The grave is the abode of the dead. The word limbo has some variations but basically it's a state where nothing happens. While you're asleep you're consciousness is in a kind of limbo. The dead are in limbo until such times as Jesus brings them to life, the resurrection for goodness sake. Limbo is not a place it's a state or condition so there are no number of limbos! [b]Limbo of the unbaptised IMO is utter nonsense.[/b] If a baby or any person having attained free will would have chosen baptism [b]knowing it's importance[/b], dies without attaining it, then Jesus personally baptises them himself, 'Baptism of desire' Just as he did when he descended into Limbo of the fathers to baptise those who had lived before John the Baptist. I don't intend to continue this loopy argument any further so I will leave you in limbo on your understanding of limbo. You are free to believe whatever you like.
[/quote]


I understand and hear you about this teaching of Limbo of the Fathers. This teaching is not hard to understand but I know it is not true. Thus, I continually give you questions so that you (Catholics) may realize its inconsistencies. Inconsistencies not only in this particular teaching but in all your doctrines which caught you like a bird in a cage. I know a believer like you never learn to listen to a believer like us although we are always hopeful that oneday you will see Christ yourself and then, you will realize we are telling the truth or I may say, I am telling the truth.

In the other topic which I started I want phatmassers to see a very simple example of one-sidedness of your early fathers in introducing beliefs as if it is from God himself while treating others, although with (almost) the same teaching as that of them, as heretical. According to Epiphanius himself, Marcion is a believer of limbo where Christ brings salvation. This is almost the same with your early church’s father’s acceptance of this teaching from the Jews but with one big difference. While Marcion (again according to Epiphanius) believe that in limbo Christ brings salvation to Cain et al and left in damnation to all Old Testament saints. On the other hand, your early fathers believe that in limbo Christ brings salvation to the Holy Prophets. So, their teaching about limbo is almost the same and their difference is only on ‘who’ are being saved.

Below is the reason/s why they believe in this kind of ‘Limbo’ which they called ‘Limbo of the Fathers’ and condemned the kind of ‘Limbo’ which Marcion introduce which now I called ‘Limbo of Cain’. (I know there is no teaching with that name but I called it as such because it was Cain et al who were being saved in Limbo of Marcion).

According to Newadvent (see [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm"]http://www.newadvent...then/09256a.htm[/url] ),
It is principally on the strength of these Scriptural texts, harmonized with the general doctrine of the Fall and Redemption of mankind, that Catholic tradition has defended the existence of the limbus patrum as a temporary state or place of happiness distinct from Purgatory. As a result of the Fall, Heaven was closed against men. Actual possession of the beatific vision was postponed, even for those already purified from sin, until the Redemption should have been historically completed by Christ's visible ascendancy into Heaven. Consequently, the just who had lived under the Old Dispensation, and who, either at death or after a course of purgatorial discipline, had attained the perfect holiness required for entrance into glory, were obliged to await the coming of the Incarnate Son of Godand the full accomplishment of His visible earthly mission. Meanwhile they were "in prison," as St. Peter says; but, as Christ's own words to the penitent thief and in the parable of Lazarus clearly imply, their condition was one of happiness, notwithstanding the postponement of the higher bliss to which they looked forward. And this, substantially, is all that Catholic tradition teaches regarding the limbus patrum.

So, it is clear. In this teaching the holy prophets have to wait in limbo. Now, it is written in 1 Peter 3:18-20

For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

The above verse will never fit in their interpretation about ‘who’ are these spirits in prison because, in the above verse these ‘spirits in prison’ are the ‘disobedient’ when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. Now, if you think holy prophets are the 'disobedient' spirits then, you must include Noah, and obviously Noah is excluded in the above verse.

Let us continue this in the other topic if you want. Okay?

Edited October 23, 2011 by reyb

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319365137' post='2325567']


I understand and hear you about this teaching of Limbo of the Fathers. This teaching is not hard to understand but I know it is not true. Thus, I continually give you questions so that you (Catholics) may realize its inconsistencies. Inconsistencies not only in this particular teaching but in all your doctrines which caught you like a bird in a cage. I know a believer like you never learn to listen to a believer like us although we are always hopeful that oneday you will see Christ yourself

[/quote]
I already told you before, I know Jesus personally. How do I know that I know him? The wisdom and love in what he tells me. If a voice told me that any dogmatic revelation was untrue or that I was some kind of prophet knowing what more educated people than I know, then I would know it to be the voice of the deceiver. I fear you are being led astray and I pray for you that Jesus will lead you to truth and you will not hear any more deceptions that lead you from the truth. The odds are that the many are correct over the one or the few.

[quote]and then, you will realize we are telling the truth [b]or I may say, I am telling the truth[/b].[/quote]
Well I'm glad to see we are getting that it is you and not we. I'm assuming that 'we' refers to you and your personal Jesus. But actually I have no objection to that since I have my own personal relationship with Jesus. Just remember though Jesus tells you things that are of great wisdom. You will know him by the fruits he bears. The evil one bears only bad fruit. Jesus bears only wisdom, good fruit!

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1319367621' post='2325584']
I already told you before, I know Jesus personally. How do I know that I know him? The wisdom and love in what he tells me.[b] If a voice told me that any dogmatic revelation was untrue or that I was some kind of prophet knowing what more educated people than I know, then I would know it to be the voice of the deceiver[/b]. I fear you are being led astray and I pray for you that Jesus will lead you to truth and you will not hear any more deceptions that lead you from the truth. The odds are that the many are correct over the one or the few.
[/quote]


Are you saying…..(something like this?)….

If someone (like me) tells you that your accepted doctrine is wrong or if someone (like me) speaks as if he is more knowledgeable than your known educated teachers in religious matters, then you know, that someone has a deceiver’s voice.

Do I get it right?

Edited October 23, 2011 by reyb

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319372138' post='2325606']


Are you saying…..(something like this?)….

If someone (like me) tells you that your accepted doctrine is wrong or if someone (like me) speaks as if he is more knowledgeable than your known educated teachers in religious matters, then you know, that someone has a deceiver’s voice.

Do I get it right?
[/quote]
Sort of but under the application of logic. For example since baptism is essential for salvation, yet the Church also teaches the possibility of salvation for all people who have not had the opportunity to be baptised. Then logically there must be an escape clause. For people prior to Jesus he must have done it for them as per Limbo of the Church Fathers. If this is wrong then how could those people have been saved? We must also have Baptism of desire for those who know Christ in their souls but have not been taught about him or been baptised. Good old Spock logic. Your view seems illogical.

I would have given you props for your post but it seems that facility is blocked which is an unfortunate state of affairs for a Christian forum.

Rey From what I read you obviously do an amazing amount of study and have a very comprehensive knowledge of scripture. I always admire and to some extent envy such people because I have a mental illness that affects my concentration making extensive reading difficult. That's why I haunt internet forums, because when I read something and think I disagree then I search for documents to support my argument and thus learn as well as exercising my brain. I see in you a nice man whose only concern is for the spiritual well being of your fellow man. I'm sure Jesus will one day bring you to his kingdom. But consider people such as myself reading what centuries of theologians determine. When I read the Vatican website documents they seem to fit the divine revelation like a glove. And then there are always people who either in worst case think they are the incarnation of Jesus or they are some divine messenger knowing what the centuries of theologians have failed to do or there are people that think some things are wrong and want to correct it by their own religion or denomination. The result of this is wars and hatred. Christian against Muslim, Catholic against Protestant. This is the devils agenda divide the forces and oppose them to each other. It is our duty to work toward oneness and the way to this is through the Church founded by Jesus. This requires a certain amount of obedience. There are numerous things that the Catholic Church teaches that I can't come to grips with and we have many obstacles in my local Church which sometimes appear like road blocks. But rather than give up and form my own independent views I prefer to work with the Catholic Church in the ways that fit best and leave what problems I can't resolve to God in his own time. In my senior years I have come to realise that God controls our lives much more than we think. I can see how I would have been the lamb to the slaughter if it weren't for Jesus watching and guiding my every move. I used to think that on odd occasions he protected me or guided me but now I can see he does that every day and has done from the beginning. The same goes for the world in general God has a plan and it is unfolding perfectly as it must. We are not in any danger. 'With Jesus our protector, the waves cannot wash over us, the winds cannot sweep us away.'

Edited October 23, 2011 by Mark of the Cross

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1319404632' post='2325813']
Sort of but under the application of logic.
[/quote]


Knowing Christ is the same as knowing the truth from the lips of God himself because, Christ is Truth of God. He is the mystery of God. And only God can reveal him. Even witnesses and writers of the scripture cannot reveal the Christ of God, although they testify about him because, (I will say it again), Christ is the mystery of God and only God can reveal him.

Now, did you really know Christ? Did you hear God who said, ‘This is my Son’?
You said ‘you know him personally ’. If it is true, why then there are knowledgeable teachers than you to whom you entrusted your accepted doctrines and belief considering the mystery of God was revealed to you by God himself?

Are your teachers seen Christ the way Apostle Paul saw Him? Why then you accepted their teaching when they said ‘This is the Christ of God according to Paul or whoever witnesses’ while in fact only God can reveal him?

Have you not seen the conflict and inconsistencies of your teaching which I have presented? If you do not see them then, you are simply ignoring it and to that I can do nothing at all. I have shown you these inconsistencies because I want you to ask God himself about the truth and nothing more.

In my previous post I asked you if this is what you really mean - ‘ If someone (like me) tells you that your accepted doctrine is wrong or if someone (like me) speaks as if he is more knowledgeable than your known educated teachers in religious matters, then you know, that someone has a deceiver’s voice' - and your answer is affirmative by saying 'Sort of'.

Don’t you not realize this world is always treated us this way? As it written in Matt 5:11-12 ‘"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Your insult is lifting me up but I am not happy because, my intention is not to humble myself as if I am saying I am above you. Our engagement is very clear to me thus I said in my previous post, a believer like you never learn to listen to a believer like us and that is, since the beginning of time. We are always pleading, make room for us in your hearts because, we have wronged no one, we have corrupted no one, we have exploited no one. I do not say this to condemn you; I have said before that you have such a place in our hearts that we would live or die with you. Do you remember what I said about Noah? By his faith he condemned the world because he finds Truth and therefore you have no reason not to find him too. If only you learn to seek and ask God about what is the Truth.

Now, if you do not want to be corrected then, it is no longer my fault. It is all yours.

Edited October 24, 2011 by reyb

[Papist]

[Selah]

Nice.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319465624' post='2326214']


Knowing Christ is the same as knowing the truth from the lips of God himself because, Christ is Truth of God. He is the mystery of God. And only God can reveal him. Even witnesses and writers of the scripture cannot reveal the Christ of God, although they testify about him because, (I will say it again), Christ is the mystery of God and only God can reveal him.

[/quote]
All the faithful know Jesus personally, this is how we can be saved. Does the drowning man know the rescuer who suspends from a helicopter? After the rescue they in some ways become one and develop a life long relationship. The saved says "This is the man who gave me life!" The rescuer says "This is the man who gave my life meaning!"

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319465624' post='2326214']

Now, did you really know Christ? Did you hear God who said, ‘This is my Son’?
You said ‘you know him personally ’. If it is true, why then there are knowledgeable teachers than you to whom you entrusted your accepted doctrines and belief considering the mystery of God was revealed to you by God himself?

[/quote]
He reveals himself only in ways specific to my humble mission. He does not tell me how to save the world or explain string theory.

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319465624' post='2326214']

Have you not seen the conflict and inconsistencies of [s]your[/s] [b]My[/b] teaching which I have presented? If you do not see them then, you are simply ignoring it and to that I can do nothing at all. I have shown you these inconsistencies because I want you to ask God himself about the truth and nothing more.

[/quote]
Fixed it for you!

Sorry, but what you have presented is illogical. I would like to ask you then if the limbo of the fathers is not true then how does God save the innocent who have not been baptised? But I fear we are way off topic maybe you would like to start a thread. Let me know if you do.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319465624' post='2326214']


Don’t you not realize this world is always treated us this way? As it written in Matt 5:11-12 ‘"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

[/quote]
I have not insulted you! I have only at times questioned if you are trolling us because your arguments are so illogical, and you seem to want to go around in endless circles. And that statement was relevant to people who do Jesus works not those who try to push their own wheel barrow on theology. Me arguing against you is not persecuting you for Jesus testimony it is trying to show you the falseness of your conclusions.

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319465624' post='2326214']

my intention is not to humble myself as if I am saying I am above you.
[/quote]
Here is a pure example of your illogical statements. How does humbling yourself say you are above someone. Jesus taught us to be humble but this does not mean we are beneath someone. In the eyes of God all are equal.

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319465624' post='2326214']
we have wronged no one, we have corrupted no one, we have exploited no one.
[/quote]
Oh, but you are, you are attempting to corrupt our faith and you insult our intelligence as if we are silly enough to believe your false logic. Unfortunately there are people who believe such falseness as yours and I fear for them. That's why I must oppose you.

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319465624' post='2326214']
Now, if you do not want to be corrected then, it is no longer my fault. It is all yours.
[/quote]
I already have the truth, it was revealed by God himself when he led me to the Catholic Church.

[Guest]

Rey B no offence but you need to humble yourself. You're coming off real pridefull. Let me guess you got it all right and all the church is wrong. Ya bro no thanks...

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1319487752' post='2326391']
All the faithful know Jesus personally, this is how we can be saved. Does the drowning man know the rescuer who suspends from a helicopter? After the rescue they in some ways become one and develop a life long relationship. The saved says "This is the man who gave me life!" The rescuer says "This is the man who gave my life meaning!"


He reveals himself only in ways specific to my humble mission. He does not tell me how to save the world or explain string theory.


Fixed it for you!

Sorry, but what you have presented is illogical. I would like to ask you then if the limbo of the fathers is not true then how does God save the innocent who have not been baptised? But I fear we are way off topic maybe you would like to start a thread. Let me know if you do.
[/quote]

In our present generation, most Christians especially Catholics, they become Christians because their parents are Christians and the rest are converts from other religion. Some of them are strong in faith and called to priesthood even at their younger age. Some become strong out of rebound from sickness or addiction or frustration or failures or whatever bad things happened to them which give them a deep realization to come back in the arms of God. Some are relax Christians though trying to become morally upright persons and still some are prayerful but lazy Christians.

They are encouraged by their seniors to obey and defend their faith. By faith they believe in the incarnation of God named Jesus and his passion redeemed them from sins. By faith they believe they are now the chosen people God. By faith they believe having the guidance of the Holy Spirit. By faith they have now their sacraments, dogma, teaching and rituals which must be followed religiously in order to please God and be freed from whatever kind of evil. By faith they believe Christ will come again to bring them to heaven.

In one time or another, they feel the presence of God especially when they are down, and usually the deeper this feeling of frustrations and helplessness, the stronger they feel the presence of God while in prayers. Faith really heals one’s innermost emptiness and sadness although this refreshing feeling is not solely for Christians. All believers feel the same way because faith in God truly heals a broken heart. Sometimes this faith brings them to deeper level of intimacy with God, and thus they say ‘Christ reveals himself only in ways specific to my humble mission’. And this is what you are telling me, ‘All the faithful know Jesus personally’.

This kind of revelation is not from God but from a believer’s heart. Faith has no power to reveal the Christ of God. By faith anyone can claim he is holding the truth but, truth are meant to be known and not to believe. No matter how strong a man’s faith is, he cannot change a lie to become truth because, faith has no power against the truth. Unless you become a true witness of God - hearing and seeing God directly – only then Christ will be revealed.

Edited October 27, 2011 by reyb

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319745009' post='2327830']

In our present generation, most Christians especially Catholics, they become Christians because their parents are Christians and the rest are converts from other religion. Some of them are strong in faith and called to priesthood even at their younger age. Some become strong out of rebound from sickness or addiction or frustration or failures or whatever bad things happened to them which give them a deep realization to come back in the arms of God.
[/quote]
Maybe that's me, except that I was a convert, but then most people carry a cross of some sort. Whether my cross is light or heavy compared to others I don't know. It's probably somewhat average but with Christ it has been made light. But what is your point here I don't know!
[quote]They are encouraged by their seniors to obey and defend their faith. By faith they believe in the incarnation of God named Jesus and his passion redeemed them from sins. By faith they believe they are now the chosen people God. By faith they believe having the guidance of the Holy Spirit. By faith they have now their sacraments, dogma, teaching and rituals which must be followed religiously in order to please God and be freed from whatever kind of evil. By faith they believe Christ will come again to bring them to heaven.


[/quote]
I'm not so afraid for my salvation that I follow every little letter of the law. If there is something that I am unsure of I will question it, or I may not even practice it leaving it as unresolved. Further on you will see why.


[quote]In one time or another, they feel the presence of God especially when they are down, and usually the deeper this feeling of frustrations and helplessness, the stronger they feel the presence of God while in prayers. Faith really heals one’s innermost emptiness and sadness although this refreshing feeling is not solely for Christians. All believers feel the same way because faith in God truly heals a broken heart. Sometimes this faith brings them to deeper level of intimacy with God, and thus they say ‘Christ reveals himself only in ways specific to my humble mission’. And this is what you are telling me, ‘All the faithful know Jesus personally’.[/quote]
Not just on the sad also on the happy. It is a daily thing for those of faith to walk with Jesus. When I went to East Timor, after school each day, I would walk the streets. The street children and students would walk with me and talk with me of their very spiritual aspirations. These were happy times for me I'm sure Jesus walked with us as he did in his day. Still once again I do not see a point that you are making. Faith in God is not a crutch if that is what you are getting at, it's bloomin' hard at times. God challenges us in numerous ways. but the result is always joyous.

[quote]This kind of revelation is not from God but from a believer’s heart. [/quote]
They're one and the same actually. Faith is a gift from God. It is an asset which he gives and which you must put to good use if you wish to please him.
[quote]Faith has no power to reveal the Christ of God. By faith anyone can claim he is holding the truth but, truth are meant to be known and not to believe. No matter how strong a man’s faith is, he cannot change a lie to become truth because, faith has no power against the truth. Unless you become a true witness of God - hearing and seeing God directly – only then Christ will be revealed.


[/quote]
I don't agree with this. (More later when I have time.)

Edited October 27, 2011 by Mark of the Cross