reyb Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1318801996' post='2322261'] [b]The heading of that text Matt 24:36-39. is 'The day and the hour is unknown[/b].' it is saying that just as the people of 'Noah's flood' were not aware of and therefore unprepared for surviving the flood. Many people are unprepared for their death. And are therefore not ready to enter Gods Kingdom. Be ready each day for your meeting with Christ! [/quote] It is not just a question of 'When' but also 'How'. It is written in Matt 24:36-39 36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 [b]As it was in the days of Noah[/b] , so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. [b]That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man[/b]. NIV See this....., '[b]As it was in the days of Noah......That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man[/b]'. Edited October 17, 2011 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Worcestershire' timestamp='1318809347' post='2322307'] I think your face is [b]the face of[/b] a moral monster. [/quote] Fixed! [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1318826046' post='2322527'] It is not just a question of 'When' but also 'How'. It is written in Matt 24:36-39 36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 [b]As it was in the days of Noah[/b] , so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. [b]That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man[/b]. NIV See this....., '[b]As it was in the days of Noah......That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man[/b]'. [/quote] What? Oh that! Could be! But time is not important. Whether it happens all at once or at a different time for each is immaterial. Dontcha think? Edited October 17, 2011 by Mark of the Cross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1318841537' post='2322563'] What? Oh that! Could be! But time is not important. Whether it happens all at once or at a different time for each is immaterial. Dontcha think? [/quote] Mark, can you please explain what you are trying to say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1318841537' post='2322563'] Fixed! [/quote] You misspelled "ruined". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Rey, the wages of sin are death. You know that. Noah's neighbors may have been curious why he was building a giant boat in his back yard. But that trust in God required to build the Arc was not what the passage in Hebrews says 'condemned' them. It is his [i]righteousness[/i]. So you are saying that no one knew any better? That 'everyone else is doing it' is a sufficient excuse for despicible and immoral behavior? Faith and righteousness are tied together, inseperable in the passage about the faith of the patriarchs and the prophets in Hebrews 11. The Old Testament teaches us that foolish people think their actions will have no consequences. That they can 'get away with' being evil. And how is it worded? 'The fool says in his heart, "There is no God."' (see Psalms 14, 53) Faith and righteousness are intertwined in the Bible -- they go together. A person who has faith behaves righteously...and a person who does whatever he wants clearly doesn't actually believe in God. (see James 2) It is important to understand this Biblical worldview when interpretting Scriptural passages. Noah's life...both his faith and his righteousness...were his witness. He lived the way he did, and his neighbors lived the way they lived. At the end of the day, whose lives were pleasing to God? The answer is...Noah. Not his neighbors. The author of Hebrews knows that Noah isn't a perfect role model, but he did *enough* right to take his place in 'the cloud of witnesses.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 [quote name='Whitchapel' timestamp='1318852171' post='2322593'] You misspelled "ruined". [/quote] You omitted , 'Well played!' [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1318842471' post='2322567'] Mark, can you please explain what you are trying to say? [/quote] You first! You appeared to be trying to link Noahs flood with the second coming. They are similar but not the same. In the first we have only one man who is pleasing to God and mysteriously his offspring and spouses. But then nothing about Noahs flood makes sense. The second coming whether it occurs for each individual at death or all at once on a day of judgement will be a just judgement on the merits of each individual. So what are you saying in regard to Noah that is relevant to the topic. We have man being kicked out of Eden for misusing his free choice, then God decides he wasn't what he had planned and wipes him out. The second time we are still cursed with the choices of the first even though we must be descendents of Noah who was pleasing to God but are behaving exactly as the people of Noahs time. Obviously if God tried a hundred times we would still have the same end result. A leopard will always have its spots! God knows what he created in man just as the orchardist who plants an apple tree does not expect oranges, he expects apples, some good and some bad. The story of Noah and the flood, sense makes none even to a 4th grader! Unless we can understand what exactly the story of Noahs flood does mean we cannot begin to discuss it in a subject of Gods justness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 (edited) [quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1318870407' post='2322718'] Rey, the wages of sin are death. You know that. Noah's neighbors may have been curious why he was building a giant boat in his back yard. But that trust in God required to build the Arc was not what the passage in Hebrews says 'condemned' them. It is his [i]righteousness[/i]. So you are saying that no one knew any better? That 'everyone else is doing it' is a sufficient excuse for despicible and immoral behavior? Faith and righteousness are tied together, inseperable in the passage about the faith of the patriarchs and the prophets in Hebrews 11. The Old Testament teaches us that foolish people think their actions will have no consequences. That they can 'get away with' being evil. And how is it worded? 'The fool says in his heart, "There is no God."' (see Psalms 14, 53) Faith and righteousness are intertwined in the Bible -- they go together. A person who has faith behaves righteously...and a person who does whatever he wants clearly doesn't actually believe in God. (see James 2) It is important to understand this Biblical worldview when interpretting Scriptural passages. Noah's life...both his faith and his righteousness...were his witness. He lived the way he did, and his neighbors lived the way they lived. At the end of the day, whose lives were pleasing to God? The answer is...Noah. Not his neighbors. The author of Hebrews knows that Noah isn't a perfect role model, but he did *enough* right to take his place in 'the cloud of witnesses.' [/quote] [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1318888181' post='2322887'] You first! You appeared to be trying to link Noahs flood with the second coming. They are similar but not the same. In the first we have only one man who is pleasing to God and mysteriously his offspring and spouses. But then nothing about Noahs flood makes sense. The second coming whether it occurs for each individual at death or all at once on a day of judgement will be a just judgement on the merits of each individual. So what are you saying in regard to Noah that is relevant to the topic. We have man being kicked out of Eden for misusing his free choice, then God decides he wasn't what he had planned and wipes him out. The second time we are still cursed with the choices of the first even though we must be descendents of Noah who was pleasing to God but are behaving exactly as the people of Noahs time. Obviously if God tried a hundred times we would still have the same end result. A leopard will always have its spots! God knows what he created in man just as the orchardist who plants an apple tree does not expect oranges, he expects apples, some good and some bad. The story of Noah and the flood, sense makes none even to a 4th grader! Unless we can understand what exactly the story of Noahs flood does mean we cannot begin to discuss it in a subject of Gods justness. [/quote] If Noah is truly building an Ark or Ship, whether in his backyard or in highest mountain, in preparation for his self-style end of the world prophesy, his neighbours will surely laugh because, a simple trunk of a tree will defeat this ridiculous warning of global flood. Nonetheless, out of curiosity some may asked how big this Ark should be since it was commanded by God in Gen 6:19-21 to bring two of all living creatures, male and female and their food and put them in a 450x 75 x 45 cubic feet Ark (Gen 6:15), which is not realistically possible. If Noah is truly referring to Global flood then you can compare him to a homeless wandering man who holds an empty box and said, ‘the entire universe is in it’. And when you give attention to it and tell him, ‘I see nothing in there’, he will answer, ‘Believe and you will see it’. Thus, it becomes acceptable only to a blind believer. Now, if you still insist that it is a historical reality then, you have to enter in that box. You have to enter not in your dreams but in reality, and you will never get it because Noah is not referring to a ship but to a salvation thru baptism (1 Peter 3:21) Yes, Noah’s flood is about the coming of the Messiah and that is how he narrates it. All writers of the scriptures are testifying about this coming. And this coming of the Messiah is the fulfilment of prophesy from where all of them are witnesses. They become witnesses because, it was fulfilled in them as it is written in Luke 1:1-2 ‘ Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word In different times in history of humanity, they become witnesses of this coming although he offered himself just once (Heb 7:27). This coming was presented in different narration although; he is the same yesterday, today and forever (Heb 13:8). Even time kneels to the power of God because his time is always Today for all eternity. (Heb 4:7) I know you understand partly because you believe that the scriptures are testimonies of witnesses, and the Messiah comes just once and He does not change. But you are looking at this historical Jesus as the Christ and witnesses’ testimonies of the old are just bit and pieces of God’s revelation in preparation for the coming of Jesus, which is now called salvation history. Salvation history is a product of earliest Catholic’s belief. It is just a belief and not the reality itself. Even your bible was compiled in this manner as if one book (bible is composed of many books) is not enough to reveal the Christ of God. The message of each and every book is salvation thru the power and wisdom of God, which is the Christ. Therefore, even one book is enough to show him and whether you are holding one book or all books which is not possible to compile (John 21:25), the result is the same – The message is the coming of Christ.. Again, yes it is about the coming of the messiah but, it is not the second coming for people who are not witnesses of the first. Second coming is prepared only for people who see the first. I am not saying that there are two comings. He comes just once but witnesses will see him twice. (Heb 9:27). Edited October 19, 2011 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319034492' post='2323649'] Yes, Noah’s flood is about the coming of the Messiah and that is how he narrates it. [/quote] That's a bit like saying that the Asian tsunamis or the Japanes tsunami was God baptising Asians. Fr. Barron says that such events are the Holy Spirit purifying us, yet the victims of events of fire flood and wind are usually the simplest most spiritual people. When the typhoon hit your country recently who suffered and died, was it the rich business people of Makati The sex businesses, or was it the poor and destitute squatters who live on scraps, but most of all on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God ? My friend you would need to give a lot of explanation to show that there is some relation between Noahs flood and baptism and the coming of Jesus. In any event as you've agreed Noahs flood has question marks about its credibility as a literal description of some event and therefore we must disregard it in a discussion as per this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1319141544' post='2324340'] That's a bit like saying that the Asian tsunamis or the Japanes tsunami was God baptising Asians. Fr. Barron says that such events are the Holy Spirit purifying us, yet the victims of events of fire flood and wind are usually the simplest most spiritual people. When the typhoon hit your country recently who suffered and died, was it the rich business people of Makati The sex businesses, or was it the poor and destitute squatters who live on scraps, but most of all on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God ? My friend you would need to give a lot of explanation to show that there is some relation between Noahs flood and baptism and the coming of Jesus. In any event as you've agreed Noahs flood has question marks about its credibility as a literal description of some event and therefore we must disregard it in a discussion as per this thread. [/quote] Tsunamis, earthquake and typhoons are natural calamities. They are part of ‘physical nature’. While waters in Noah’s flood is from heaven and great deep of the earth (Gen 7:11-12). They are not the same ‘water’. About water in Noah’s flood as baptism – I already gave you that verse. Read and try to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 (edited) [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311373432' post='2274010'] I think there is a good discussion to be had here. I have never read the bible so have only heard of bits of it. But.. Stories about god setting a couple of she-bears onto a group of children for teasing a man about his bald head. How is this reasoned? If a person did that in our society they would be scorned as a horrific monster and would be locked up for a very long time. I understand that Christians take god as being perfect and all loving and hence come up with a reasoning which tries to align with that. God always gets the benefit of the doubt, and hence can do pretty much anything, including killing all the people, all the animals, all the plants of the entire world except two of each. Then this story is glorified and seen as a significant good that god has done. [/quote] [quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1311316686' post='2273654'] How many people has god killed, according to the Bible? [url="http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2010/04/drunk-with-blood-gods-killings-in-bible.html"]http://dwindlinginun...s-in-bible.html[/url] What is more violent, the Bible or the Quran? [url="http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/06/which-is-more-violent-bible-or-quran.html"]http://dwindlinginun...e-or-quran.html[/url] Cruelty and violence in the Bible? [url="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html"]http://skepticsannot...uelty/long.html[/url] Some thoughts for consideration. [/quote] This is the problem with seekers but have no faith in God. They are easily hook to an idea that God is unjust and a monster without asking themselves if they truly understand the writers. Cat and Stevil, Do you accept that rains come from heaven? (see Gen 7:11-12). Edited October 21, 2011 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319155167' post='2324422'] Do you accept that rains come from heaven? (see Gen 7:11-12). [/quote] I assume you don't want a scientific answer of where rain comes from, it's a very earthly answer. Evaporation, precipitation, you know the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319148032' post='2324362'] Tsunamis, earthquake and typhoons are natural calamities. They are part of ‘physical nature’. While waters in Noah’s flood is from heaven and great deep of the earth (Gen 7:11-12). They are not the same ‘water’. About water in Noah’s flood as baptism – I already gave you that verse. Read and try to see it. [/quote] [quote]After being made alive,[sup][[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%203:10-25&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30444d"]d[/url]][/sup] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— [sup]20[/sup] to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.[/quote] The imprisoned spirits refers to the 'limbo of the Fathers'. At death he descended into hell....He passed judgement on those who were disobedient. [quote]In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, [sup]21[/sup] and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also[/quote] Figuratively because Noah heeded God he and family were saved by the waters 'from heaven and the nether world?' just as the water of baptism is from heaven and saves you. Do you think that the Ark is symbolic of the planet earth? In any event It's still pretty vague Rey. and unrelated to the thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1319180116' post='2324543'] I assume you don't want a scientific answer of where rain comes from, it's a very earthly answer. Evaporation, precipitation, you know the story. [/quote] Again, do you believe that water or h2o comes from 'heaven'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1319191913' post='2324567'] The imprisoned spirits refers to the 'limbo of the Fathers'. At death he descended into hell....He passed judgement on those who were disobedient. Figuratively because Noah heeded God he and family were saved by the waters 'from heaven and the nether world?' just as the water of baptism is from heaven and saves you. Do you think that the Ark is symbolic of the planet earth? In any event It's still pretty vague Rey. and unrelated to the thread! [/quote] According to cmotherofpril… [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1271358813' post='2094157'] Limbo is speculation, which means its not dogma. [/quote] We have a topic about this. Of course, it is ‘pretty vague’ in your eyes because baptism in Heb 11:7 is not referring to your kind of baptism as mentioned in Article 1, The Sacrament of Baptism (see CCC or Roman Catholic Church). In Sacrament of Catholic Church, the one initiated is the one immersed in water while in Heb 11:7 the one who entered the Ark is the one saved through water or have been baptized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 (edited) [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1319180116' post='2324543'] I assume you don't want a scientific answer of where rain comes from, it's a very earthly answer. Evaporation, precipitation, you know the story. [/quote] [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319232955' post='2324845'] Again, do you believe that water or h2o comes from 'heaven'? [/quote] As long as you are honest in yourself in answering my question, I will welcome it. So, again..... Do you believe that water ( h2o) comes from 'heaven'? Edited October 22, 2011 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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