Is God A Moral Monster?

[reyb]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1318740623' post='2321944']
They did not die for Noah.

They died because it was their time to die, and for their own sins.

Noah was spared from that fate.
[/quote]
It is written in Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

So by Noah's obedience, God was pleased and by his faith, he condemned the world. It is written in Gen 6:13 (God said)
"I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth'
.
Okay. Suppose all man and woman at that time are violent, barbarous, brutal, savage, vicious, aggressive, frantic, frenzied, satanic or whatever. But, how about little children and babies? Why God did not give them another chance ? Why God need to wipe them out? Are we become holier than them today?

Let me put it this way, suppose you are Noah. Do you think it is okay to wipe-out the entire humanity including children just because of your faith?

Edited October 16, 2011 by reyb

[MithLuin]

Noah did not wipe out humanity. What St. Paul is saying is that the rest of humanity is condemned for their sins...because in their midst lives Noah, who is a righteous man. Meaning...they didn't 'have' to be barbarous savages, but apparently were anyway. Noah merely makes their guilt more crystal clear.

Children die all the time. There are thousand dying in the Horn of Africa right now, because of the terrible drought.

This does not seem fair to me, but I don't pretend to know when people 'should' die, either. All we can do is work our hardest to prevent that.

[reyb]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1318775002' post='2322064']
Noah did not wipe out humanity. What St. Paul is saying is that the rest of humanity is condemned for their sins...because in their midst lives Noah, who is a righteous man. Meaning...they didn't 'have' to be barbarous savages, but apparently were anyway. Noah merely makes their guilt more crystal clear.

Children die all the time. There are thousand dying in the Horn of Africa right now, because of the terrible drought.

This does not seem fair to me, but I don't pretend to know when people 'should' die, either. All we can do is work our hardest to prevent that.
[/quote]


Okay. So during the days of Noah, they (the rest of humanity) did not die but ‘condemned’ to be sinner because there is one man Noah who is righteous and pleases God.

[MithLuin]

No. They were sinners, and [i]this[/i] is what condemned them to death.

Noah, being pleasing to God, did not share their fate.

Meaning, if you remove Noah from the equation (let's say he never lived, or was no different from his neighbors), it seems that God's course of action may have been to wipe out everyone in existence and start with a clean slate.

Noah's existence (and choice to live a Godly life) is not what got the other people killed. Their own lifestyles did that. Noah's righteousness condemns them because he showed through his own example that there was another way to live...and they did not do so. The 'they didn't know any better' excuse is lost when Noah was living in their midst. We are told that these people persisted in their evil despite the good example of Noah, and thus....time was up.

For an interesting take on this story, I recommend [i]Pastwatch: The Redemption of Christopher Columbus[/i] by Orson Scott Card. In this speculative historical fiction, he suggests that the evil that was wiped out in Noah's time was child sacrifice. So, after Noah, only animal sacrifice was acceptable...in that part of the world. To wipe out human sacrifice worldwide...some other interventions would be needed. It's an interesting premise, because the story of Abraham (where he intends to sacrifice his son Isaac, but instead sacrifices the ram, all at God's command in Genesis 22) is often seen as God teaching the people of Israel that animal sacrifice, not human sacrifice, is the way to go. Local cults that [i]do[/i] sacrifice children are condemned throughout the Old Testament (examples can be found [url="http://www.openbible.info/topics/child_sacrifice"]here[/url]). And of course with the life and death of Jesus Christ, animal sacrifice is not needed, either.

Each time in history has its own evils, and the advantage of seeing history with our modern eyes is that what was taken for granted in that time can jump out glaringly to us...and what we take for granted can be seen through the lens of the past, as well. Murder has always been viewed as evil, but often taken for granted as an unavoidable way of dealing with one's neighbors. Thankfully, a modern person is horrified to find out about this, but we have our own 'inevitable' wrongs that we don't necessarily approve of...but don't see how anyone could possibly avoid, either.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1318678607' post='2321559']


But none of you consider this global flood as ‘the coming of Messiah’ (Matthew 24:37).


[/quote]
The heading of that text Matt 24:36-39. is 'The day and the hour is unknown.' it is saying that just as the people of 'Noah's flood' were not aware of and therefore unprepared for surviving the flood. Many people are unprepared for their death. And are therefore not ready to enter Gods Kingdom. Be ready each day for your meeting with Christ!


[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1318685863' post='2321570']

I cannot help myself but to laugh when I visit this site [url="http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2009/01/gods-killings-1-all-flesh-died-that.html"]http://dwindlinginun...-died-that.html[/url]


[/quote]
It certainly is laughable comparing satans killings to Gods! Which death do you prefer? The killing of the soul in hell. Or the shedding of your earthly tomb (your earthly body) for Eternal life in Gods love. I sincerely hope Mr Cat stops reading such depressing non sense.


[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1318767812' post='2322034']
.
Okay. Suppose all man and woman at that time are violent, barbarous, brutal, savage, vicious, aggressive, frantic, frenzied, satanic or whatever. But, how about little children and babies? Why God did not give them another chance ? Why God need to wipe them out? Are we become holier than them today?

Let me put it this way, suppose you are Noah. Do you think it is okay to wipe-out the entire humanity including children just because of your faith?
[/quote]
I put it to you again. Consider the logistics of the story of Noah. Just like Genesis, Do you not consider the possibility that it is an allegory? And if you understood its true meaning, it may make profound sense, which it definitely does not if taken in a literal sense.

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1318775002' post='2322064']

Children die all the time. There are thousand dying in the Horn of Africa right now, because of the terrible drought.

This does not seem fair to me, but I don't pretend to know when people 'should' die, either. All we can do is work our hardest to prevent that.
[/quote]
'Their angels behold the face of God in heaven!' The rich man on Wall St. who did not care for them, may spend eternity in Hell. Is that unfair?

Edited October 16, 2011 by Mark of the Cross

[rachael]

I don't think God is a moral monster. People are.

[Winchester]

I think your face is a moral monster.

[rachael]

I agree.

[Winchester]

You are wise beyond your years.

[rachael]

I know this as well.

[Winchester]

Only because I told you.

[rachael]

Will you be my mentor?

[Winchester]

[img]http://collider.com/wp-content/image-base/Movies/F/Fear_and_Loathing_in_Las_Vegas/Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas movie image Johnny Depp (1).jpg[/img]

[rachael]

only the best

[reyb]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1318795093' post='2322176']
No. They were sinners, and [i]this[/i] is what condemned them to death.

Noah, being pleasing to God, did not share their fate.

Meaning, if you remove Noah from the equation (let's say he never lived, or was no different from his neighbors), it seems that God's course of action may have been to wipe out everyone in existence and start with a clean slate.

Noah's existence (and choice to live a Godly life) is not what got the other people killed. Their own lifestyles did that. Noah's righteousness condemns them because he showed through his own example that there was another way to live...and they did not do so. The 'they didn't know any better' excuse is lost when Noah was living in their midst. We are told that these people persisted in their evil despite the good example of Noah, and thus....time was up.

For an interesting take on this story, I recommend [i]Pastwatch: The Redemption of Christopher Columbus[/i] by Orson Scott Card. In this speculative historical fiction, he suggests that the evil that was wiped out in Noah's time was child sacrifice. So, after Noah, only animal sacrifice was acceptable...in that part of the world. To wipe out human sacrifice worldwide...some other interventions would be needed. It's an interesting premise, because the story of Abraham (where he intends to sacrifice his son Isaac, but instead sacrifices the ram, all at God's command in Genesis 22) is often seen as God teaching the people of Israel that animal sacrifice, not human sacrifice, is the way to go. Local cults that [i]do[/i] sacrifice children are condemned throughout the Old Testament (examples can be found [url="http://www.openbible.info/topics/child_sacrifice"]here[/url]). And of course with the life and death of Jesus Christ, animal sacrifice is not needed, either.

Each time in history has its own evils, and the advantage of seeing history with our modern eyes is that what was taken for granted in that time can jump out glaringly to us...and what we take for granted can be seen through the lens of the past, as well. Murder has always been viewed as evil, but often taken for granted as an unavoidable way of dealing with one's neighbors. Thankfully, a modern person is horrified to find out about this, but we have our own 'inevitable' wrongs that we don't necessarily approve of...but don't see how anyone could possibly avoid, either.
[/quote]
Your above interpretation does not fit in Heb 11:7.
It is written, 7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

You are in interpreting this verse as if Noah’s faith has nothing to do with their fate. Thus, you said ‘Noah’s existence (and choice to live a Godly life) is not what got the other people killed. Their own lifestyles did that. Yes, they are sinners. Actually all of us are sinners.

And this is what you are trying to say.

Out of God’s frustration to man, since man has evil thoughts in their heart all the time (6:5-8), God grieved or repented in creating them (Gen 6:7) and decided to destroy the entire humanity, to spare the earth from violence during the time of Noah (Gen 6:11). Thus, you concluded that ‘(Meaning)…, if you remove Noah from the equation (let's say he never lived, or was no different from his neighbors), it seems that God's course of action may have been to wipe out everyone in existence and start with a clean slate. ‘

Again, this kind of analysis will create a wrong signal that even God can make mistake and he is not a truly all-knowing-God because he failed to see what will happen next after he created man. Let us discuss it later.

You said ‘Noah's righteousness condemns them because he showed through his own example that there was another way to live...and they did not do so.’ It is sound correct provided that the rest of humanity understands Noah’s faith.

What I am saying is this. The verse, ‘By his faith he condemned the world’ is the same as if one man see the Truth, the rest of humanity have no reason to say they cannot see it too. Again, if one man has faith like that of Noah which pleases God, then the rest of humanity has no reason to say they cannot have it too. But what kind of faith Noah has which pleases God?

It is written in Heb 11:7 ‘By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family’. Now, who warns Noah and about what?

Of course your answer will be obvious ‘God warned Noah of the impending flood and thus commanded him to make an ark’ (Gen 6:13-15). In short, only Noah was warned by God and not the rest of humanity. He (Noah) is the only one righteous, blameless, and walked with God (Gen 6:9) but still, he do not know what is the meaning of this warning. (Heb 11:7). In short, how can he share this kind of faith to the rest of humanity? And If he cannot share it, in what way others can see it? So, Where is God's righteousness in killing them?

Edited October 17, 2011 by reyb