Is God A Moral Monster?

[reyb]

[quote name='Momma's Boy' timestamp='1318519421' post='2320635']

not sure what this means-please explain how I'm saying that God is unjust?
[/quote]


Because you are talking about salvation history where Christians are the most favored people than the rest of the entire humanity. To say, ‘Yet we can see God guiding his people closer and closer to his Heart throughout the OT and teaching them ultimately how he wants them to be and the kind of relationship he wants them to have with Him’ is a sign of favoritism.

[sixpence]

clearly this discussion should have ended on p 8 with my amesome post.. why u all still hanging around here?

[MithLuin]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1317569017' post='2313896']
He is actually ‘questioning’ your reasoning on how God is just in that kind of scenario. I know you said ‘God is just’ but how come God is just in that kind of ‘killing the entire humanity’.
[/quote]

As I explained earlier in this thread (maybe page 8?), God, being God, has a much different level of responsibility than any human agent would. Ultimately, the death of every single human being who has ever lived (forget a one-off like the Flood) must occur within the will of an all-powerful God.

So, where for us, we can say, "I didn't kill the person!" and mean that, through no fault of our own, not even by accident, were we in any way responsibile for a person's death...the same standards don't work for God.

So, while struggling with whether or not God is 'just', one must also struggle with the concept of death. Is death 'just'? If there is no answer for that, then how could one hope to judge God's actions?

Christians say that death is just, but that God has introduced a way for us to conquer death. That's a more significant answer than merely tallying up a death toll.

Hope this helps.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Momma's Boy' timestamp='1318516220' post='2320614']
"This kind of says that God behaved unjustly because it was the in thing of the time and because God was expected to be unjust he did. Yet in Jesus time, also very violent, people expected adulterers to be stoned. But Jesus taught otherwise. It also implies that because things are different in our time, that those violent stories in the Bible are now redundant and are no longer the word of God for us."

God never behaves unjustly. I think his harshness with Israel can be compaired to the raising of a child. When a child is young, they learn alot of rules, alot of do's and do not's (Mosaic law). If they don't follow them they get a spanking (or a time out-40 years- lol). Yet we can see God guiding his people closer and closer to his Heart throughout the OT and teaching them ultimately how he wants them to be and the kind of relationship he wants them to have with Him. A child can't end with rules. Eventually, they have to mature and learn the reasons and ultimately be able to embrace the love behind the rules. He sends his only Son to model this love. Then they learn it's not about rules but about relationship.
[/quote]
But you are trying to justify it by considering mankind as a whole. God gives primitive man basic harsh lessons like slapping a child. This results in many individuals meeting a violent end directly from God as if the are irrelevant. Such as the individuals killed to make way for the Israelites. Then later as mankind becomes more mature God gives more intellectual lessons like detention or reprimand. Yet the Christian God teaches a personal relationship with each individual and that all are equal.
[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1318527337' post='2320684']

As I explained earlier in this thread (maybe page 8?), God, being God, has a much different level of responsibility than any human agent would. Ultimately, the death of every single human being who has ever lived (forget a one-off like the Flood) must occur within the will of an all-powerful God.

So, where for us, we can say, "I didn't kill the person!" and mean that, through no fault of our own, not even by accident, were we in any way responsibile for a person's death...the same standards don't work for God.

So, while struggling with whether or not God is 'just', one must also struggle with the concept of death. Is death 'just'? If there is no answer for that, then how could one hope to judge God's actions?

Christians say that death is just, but that God has introduced a way for us to conquer death. That's a more significant answer than merely tallying up a death toll.

Hope this helps.
[/quote] You have explained the difference in human initiated death and God initiated death. If someone stabs me for my wallet, it's an unjust and evil death because the motive is for personal selfish gain and not for Gods purpose. Even euthanasia is wrong because only God knows when the time is right. But if God decides it is my time and wants to bring me to paradise, then exactly the opposite is the case. God has taken my mortal life and hopefully has replaced it with eternal life. If not, it is my fault, not Gods because my behaviour has not been conducive to eternal life and supposedly God has given opportunity to change. So, It is not the death of the children that is the problem, it is the perception of their immaturity and being influenced by where they live. The fact that God has not given them time to repent apparently. I imagine being killed by bears is a very unpleasant way to die. The violence of this death does not seem to fit the sin. Even in the NT two people have a quick death Okay they didn't suffer so maybe that was good. The issue is the implication that they defied the Apostles not that God thought they were ready for eternal life.

[quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1318527129' post='2320682']
clearly this discussion should have ended on p 8 with my amesome post.. why u all still hanging around here?
[/quote]
The reason why I am continuing is because the contradictions and impossible stories in the Bible are hard to explain to enquirers. Mith has given us a good explanation of death taken on it's own. This may even explain some of it such as the couple who died because they displeased the apostles. Maybe it was their time and maybe people were so stubbornly recalcitrant that they needed such a harsh lesson. But the two bears is a difficult one as explained in my response to Mith.

[reyb]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1316865089' post='2309210']


I am curious too as to what your ultimate aim is here on phatmass. You profess not to believe in God so why even bother with those of us whom you think are brainwashed (or however you see us)? We are happy in our 'ignorance' or however it is that you see us. At least I am. I am happy that you are happy with your situation too, but if you are so sure and happy about your position - why spend so much time arguing it? Are you trying to 'save' us? Or 'enlighten' us or what?

I don't believe God is a moral monster because I don't believe that a Creator can be judged by His creation since he set the game in motion and made the rules and can change them. That might make Him arbitrary perhaps, but I don't even see that since I believe He is a God of goodness and His intention in the good of each individual soul. But even if you could convince me (or anyone else) of your way of seeing God - what would be the point? Opinions are opinions. Are you trying to convince yourself of something? I just don't get it.
[/quote]
[quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1316879613' post='2309247']
So I think basically you want someone to concede that if someone with no background info or preconcieved notions about God were to read the Old Testament they would conclude that this God were a monster (judging by human moral standards)? If that is what you are looking for, then I would agree with you that some people would come to that conclusion.

However, what is the point? It is still a mystery to me why: 1. you want to insist on judging God by human standards and 2. you insist that the Old Testament not be subject to any type of "interpretation" but only read in a word for word literal sense, not taking into account any type of poetic license or consulting any sources of relevant background material to put things into context and 3. you imagine that you have the ability to comprehend to the mind of God (let alone Judge it). (See Isaiah 55:8-99)
[/quote]


This is the reason why you have to explain it. If you are a true disciple of Christ you must know the righteousness of God. It is written in 1 Cor 2:10-16

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:

16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?"

But we have the mind of Christ .
---------------
In short, if you have the ‘mind of Christ’, you must know it (the righteousness of God) as it is written in Rom 3:21-22

21 But now righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
--------------------
Why not consider these (Atheist) inquiries a blessing rather than an insult? Why not judge yourself whether you are a true disciple or not? Do you know that Atheist too believe in a just God? A hardcore atheist says ‘there is no God’ because he believes if there is a God, He must be a just and a righteous God. And since he cannot see the righteousness of God, he cannot accept that God is not a righteous one and therefore, it is better to say 'none.'. At least he is more honest than others.

Edited October 13, 2011 by reyb

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1318515603' post='2320611']
You are truly distracted because you cannot interpret even your own allegory. In our little story, it is the owner who rejected the gardener. Now, if God is the gardener, who is Adam? Is Adam the owner of Eden? (Or are we the owner of Eden?) I know what you mean about this prodigal son and we will get there later.

[/quote]
I didn't think my English is that bad! Anyhoo, no point going further if you don't see what I am getting at and it is off topic for my purpose so lets stick with the subject.

[MithLuin]

Yes, being attacked by bears is very unpleasant, especially if the bear leaves you for mostly dead and waits for you to die of your wounds before coming back to eat you.

Probably not the worst way to go, though, and honestly, can you think of a *pleasant* death? Drowning is fairly fast, but extremely scary. Starving to death is not violent, but long drawn out and painful. Freezing to death you just get numb and fall asleep, but you still are miserable and then you die, so.....

Crucifixion is right up there with 'worst ways to go' because it is long and drawn out, painful, includes the panic of not being able to breathe, isolates you from human contact, and includes intense public humiliation.

So, if you look at it that way, God wasn't willing to deal out any punishment that he himself wasn't willing to accept.

[reyb]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1318527337' post='2320684']

As I explained earlier in this thread (maybe page 8?), God, being God, has a much different level of responsibility than any human agent would. Ultimately, the death of every single human being who has ever lived (forget a one-off like the Flood) must occur within the will of an all-powerful God.

So, where for us, we can say, "I didn't kill the person!" and mean that, through no fault of our own, not even by accident, were we in any way responsibile for a person's death...the same standards don't work for God.

So, while struggling with whether or not God is 'just', one must also struggle with the concept of death. Is death 'just'? If there is no answer for that, then how could one hope to judge God's actions?

Christians say that death is just, but that God has introduced a way for us to conquer death. That's a more significant answer than merely tallying up a death toll.

Hope this helps.
[/quote]

The question is not whether God is just or unjust. But in what way God became just and righteous considering the sentiments presented in this thread.
It is agreed that even death is a blessing from God.

Edited October 14, 2011 by reyb

[MithLuin]

I don't think God 'became' just or righteous...I think these are some of His intrinsic properties. He just [i]is[/i] that way...before he even does anything. So, his actions manifest his righteousness, he doesn't 'become' righteous because of just actions.

Does that distinction make sense?

[reyb]

.

Edited October 15, 2011 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1318625122' post='2321321']
I don't think God 'became' just or righteous...I think these are some of His intrinsic properties. He just [i]is[/i] that way...before he even does anything. So, his actions manifest his righteousness, he doesn't 'become' righteous because of just actions.

Does that distinction make sense?
[/quote]

You said ‘he doesn't 'become' righteous because of just actions.’ Do you also mean, ‘…and neither he become ‘unjust’ because of his ‘unrighteous’ deeds’?
Obviously, you are simply saying, ‘God is just’ period. He is righteous and you do not know how. If that is the case, your faith works without any foundation but your will.

I do not mean that the properties of God changes - from unjust to just, kind to cruel…etc. - like in a man’s properties which depends on his wavering actions. God is just because God is Holy (Ps 99:8-9). He is Holy because his action is (always) blameless as it is written in 1 John 1:5-6 ‘God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.’

While both of you (Atheist and believers like you) consider the historical reality of this global flood, you are different in treating this scenario.On one hand, since Atheists seek for a reason to believe in a righteous God. They did not find it because, they are looking to the unjust killing of the entire humanity including children and babies just to show God’s power to establish his covenant with Noah, and thus concluded OT God is unjust and a monster.On the other hand, you are ignoring it, and looking only on the greatness of God and what he did to Noah, and now you are insisting that God is just by saying that God is the owner of life and everything.

But none of you consider this global flood as ‘the coming of Messiah’ (Matthew 24:37).

Now, since both of you are considering this very inhuman end of the world scenario. Let us continue our discussion.

While it is true that God is the owner of life and everything. Does God show favoritism?

(Because it is written in Rom 9:20-21
20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? )

Edited October 15, 2011 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1311316686' post='2273654']
How many people has god killed, according to the Bible?

[url="http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2010/04/drunk-with-blood-gods-killings-in-bible.html"]http://dwindlinginun...s-in-bible.html[/url]

What is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?

[url="http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/06/which-is-more-violent-bible-or-quran.html"]http://dwindlinginun...e-or-quran.html[/url]

Cruelty and violence in the Bible?

[url="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html"]http://skepticsannot...uelty/long.html[/url]
[/quote]

I cannot help myself but to laugh when I visit this site [url="http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2009/01/gods-killings-1-all-flesh-died-that.html"]http://dwindlinginun...-died-that.html[/url]

[quote]
[size=6]The Flood of Noah: All flesh died that moved upon the earth[/size]
[size=4]Chapter 1 in Drunk with Blood: God's killings in the Bible.[/size]
Genesis 7:21-23
Estimated number killed: 20 million
Everyone on earth (except for Noah and his family)
Table of God's killings
Who has killed more Satan or God?
God's next killing
[/quote]


where he (writer/owner of this site) get his idea about:

[quote]
[b]Estimated number killed: 20 million [/b]
[/quote]

This is a scheme to deceive the weak by putting ice-cream on cake.

Edited October 15, 2011 by reyb

[MithLuin]

But God is the creator of the universe. I'm not saying that he can 'get away with things' because he's God. I'm saying that, because he's God, he determines everything. God cannot and will not act unjustly, because that is not within his nature. It has nothing to do with my will.

The Bible is very clear that God chose Noah, because of who Noah was, and did not prevent the rest of humanity from dying at that time because of who they were.

I don't understand what distinction you are trying to make.

[reyb]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1318739369' post='2321935']
But God is the creator of the universe. I'm not saying that he can 'get away with things' because he's God. I'm saying that, because he's God, he determines everything. God cannot and will not act unjustly, because that is not within his nature. It has nothing to do with my will.

The Bible is very clear that God chose Noah, because of who Noah was, and did not prevent the rest of humanity from dying at that time because of who they were.

I don't understand what distinction you are trying to make.
[/quote]


Okay. Noah was chosen by God but….
Do you think it is ‘fair’ and ‘just’ to other human beings to die just for Noah?

[MithLuin]

They did not die for Noah.

They died because it was their time to die, and for their own sins.

Noah was spared from that fate.