Is God A Moral Monster?

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1318174768' post='2318528']

Okay so for a while let us set aside about 911 incident and focus on tsunami and earthquake as tragedies posted by Kia Ora.
My first question: Are natural calamities happened because it is willed by God or not?
[/quote]
[quote]
Genesis 3:17 -19
[sup]17[/sup] To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
[sup]18[/sup] It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
[sup]19[/sup] By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”
[/quote]
Does this imply that before the fall, God had made a land that provided everything Adam required, Eden! But after the fall, God let nature take it's natural course. In the Eden earthquakes and tsunamis would not have occurred, but because of the fall they are allowed to occur by natural action. Basically they are no-ones fault but mankind is subject to them because he chose this world to live in by his free will. Didacus' child has to be allowed to play with matches and burn it's fingers so that it will learn and thus not set the house on fire.

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1318193661' post='2318655']
Does this imply that before the fall, God had made a land that provided everything Adam required, Eden! But after the fall, God let nature take it's natural course. In the Eden earthquakes and tsunamis would not have occurred, but because of the fall they are allowed to occur by natural action. Basically they are no-ones fault but mankind is subject to them because he chose this world to live in by his free will. Didacus' child has to be allowed to play with matches and burn it's fingers so that it will learn and thus not set the house on fire.
[/quote]


So, you are saying, it is Adam’s fault why there are tsunamis and earthquake and so on but you do not even ask, why God cursed the ‘earth and everything in it’ and not Adam alone. On the other hand, you are saying, ‘because of Adam’s fault God let nature take its natural course and you do not even ask yourself if nature and every reality is a blessing rather than a curse.

And worst when you said ‘Basically they are no-ones fault but mankind is subject to them because he chose this world to live in by his free will.’

Did you ever choose to be born in this world with tsunamis and earthquake?
Why then you listen to your spirit and say ‘‘Basically they are no-ones fault but mankind is subject to them because he chose this world to live in by his free will'?.

Edited October 9, 2011 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1318193661' post='2318655']
Didacus' child has to be allowed to play with matches and burn it's fingers so that it will learn and thus not set the house on fire.
[/quote]


It is better if you’ll teach Dicacus’ child how to properly use it and not to play with it.

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1318193661' post='2318655']
Does this imply that before the fall, God had made a land that provided everything Adam required, Eden! But after the fall, God let nature take it's natural course. In the Eden earthquakes and tsunamis would not have occurred, but because of the fall they are allowed to occur by natural action. Basically they are no-ones fault but mankind is subject to them because he chose this world to live in by his free will. Didacus' child has to be allowed to play with matches and burn it's fingers so that it will learn and thus not set the house on fire.
[/quote]



Let me clarify something so that we will not lose in our discussion.
So you are saying, natural calamities are not willed by God but a curse. How about nature? Is it a blessing or a curse from God?

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1318207119' post='2318803']



Let me clarify something so that we will not lose in our discussion.
So you are saying, natural calamities are not willed by God but a curse. How about nature? Is it a blessing or a curse from God?
[/quote]
If I reject the gardener from the garden and the garden becomes over grown and dysfunctional. Whose fault is it? Is it the gardeners fault because he left or mine because I rejected him?

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1318204602' post='2318776']
So, you are saying, it is Adam’s fault why there are tsunamis and earthquake and so on but you do not even ask, why God cursed the ‘earth and everything in it’ and not Adam alone. On the other hand, you are saying, ‘because of Adam’s fault God let nature take its natural course and you do not even ask yourself if nature and every reality is a blessing rather than a curse.
[/quote]
Adam is mankind collectively! It is not our fault that there are tsunamis. We wanted to play in a rough play ground with the big boys. Our pain is our fault! How could God curse Adam but still maintain Eden for him?

[quote]And worst when you said ‘Basically they are no-ones fault but mankind is subject to them because he chose this world to live in by his free will.’


[/quote]
We are of course entering an area that I cannot give you reasons for. I don't know why God cursed the earth or even if he did. My theory is that for us to reciprocate Gods love in order to live in paradise with him forever, we have to have free choice to chose his love. By our choice of self and sin we rejected him not the reverse. This meant that he had to let go of full control of creation and let it run by its own natural processes. Of course this may be a simplistic theory and way off of reality but since no one really knows what we did or why life is apparently so unfair. You may ask why does the poor of nations hit by earthquakes seemingly suffer more than the rich. I can't answer that but I search for an answer that makes God appear just because that's how I see him. The God that I know personally is very different than one that would be described as a moral monster.

[quote]Did you ever choose to be born in this world with tsunamis and earthquake?[/quote]
If this is the way to God and eternal life, then yes, I would choose it. If not for tsunamis and earthquakes how could I express my love and compassion for my neighbour and my God?


[quote]Why then you listen to your spirit and say ‘‘Basically they are no-ones fault but mankind is subject to them because he chose this world to live in by his free will'?.[/quote]
The subject of drugs used by Australians in Bali often hits the news. There are numerous warning signs at the airport warning tourists of severe punishment. If I take drugs to Bali and I end up on death row in Denpasar prison, whose fault is that?

Edited October 10, 2011 by Mark of the Cross

[Didacus]

First off - I do pretend to have all the answers, nor am I anywhere near a Church scholar, nor a wiseman for that matter.
Just wanted to get that out there.


Lets see if we can detach the different circumstances here;

God being just? I'll just say that He is and leave it at that.

God owns life on earth.

If He kills, it is simply Himself bringing us either to His justice or His precense.


Nature occurances of death
God is not responsible for these deaths. He lets the rain fall on the good and bad equally. He just made nature, and the rules contained therein. God is not nature.


Death caused by people on earth (and their evil?)
Once again, God does not cause these deaths. He lets the rain falls per above.


As far as death being caused by other people and nature and God letting it happen - Although God des not wish any harm to us, nor does He approve of murder and similar actions. He lets these happen however He knows that everyone through death returns to Him. And upon returning to Him, those deserving of justice shall receive it, and any tears shed during life will be consolled. Such is his promise to us.

[Momma's Boy]

Hi all-haven't been on the site for a while. In response to the op, yes there are many places in the Bible that violence takes place. When the nation of Israel is moving into the Promised Land, God has them kill all who live there, so that they themselves wouldn't be caught up in the worship and lifestyle of those who's land they were being given. Other passages, like the 2 she-bears devouring children I would equivicate to something like a "divine spanking", only not intended to reform the children themselves but as a warning to any who would follow in their footsteps. In the New Testament, 2 people fall over dead after lying to the Apostles in a similar situation. I think the thing that we have to remember is that that time was very violent in general. These things would not have seemed unfair to the people of the period but rather wonderous acts of God.

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1318279620' post='2319273']
If I reject the gardener from the garden and the garden becomes over grown and dysfunctional. Whose fault is it? Is it the gardeners fault because he left or mine because I rejected him?
[/quote]


It is your fault because you should not hire him if he is not qualified to the task. Your gardener left you because you fired him. You rejected him because you see something wrong in him. Nonetheless, it is not proper to blame him for leaving causing your garden dysfunctional because, you are the one who put the rules, restrictions, regulations, and conditions to maintain your garden and thus, you must teach all these things before you condemn him. There is injustice to punish a servant if any shortcoming he has done was just a product of ignorance or an unintentional ineptitude, and not due to insubordination.[center]------------------------------------------[/center]
It is written in Gen 3:6 'When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.[center]----------------------------------------[/center]
Is it wrong for a man to listen to his wife, a partner helper given by God, who said, ‘this fruit was good in gaining wisdom’? Is it wrong to listen to someone given by God? Is it damnable to attain wisdom?

So, if Adam is the gardener and you are the owner of that Eden, will you condemn Adam simply because he listened to his wife? Yes, you commanded him ‘Do not eat it’. But how can he possibly know, what he is doing is insubordination (in eating that fruit), if he does not know the right from the wrong before he take it?

Edited October 12, 2011 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1318279620' post='2319273']
Adam is mankind collectively! It is not our fault that there are tsunamis. We wanted to play in a rough play ground with the big boys. Our pain is our fault[b]! How could God curse Adam but still maintain Eden for him?[/b]
[/quote]


So it is Adam’s fault but not your fault. Why then you believe that because of Adam’s sin you too become a sinner? (Using Rom 5:12)

I thought, ‘Nothing is impossible with God’? Why then you do not believe that He can do it?

Edited October 12, 2011 by reyb

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Momma's Boy' timestamp='1318434122' post='2320155']
Hi all-haven't been on the site for a while. In response to the op, yes there are many places in the Bible that violence takes place. When the nation of Israel is moving into the Promised Land, God has them kill all who live there, so that they themselves wouldn't be caught up in the worship and lifestyle of those who's land they were being given. Other passages, like the 2 she-bears devouring children I would equivicate to something like a "divine spanking", only not intended to reform the children themselves but as a warning to any who would follow in their footsteps. In the New Testament, 2 people fall over dead after lying to the Apostles in a similar situation. I think the thing that we have to remember is that that time was very violent in general. These things would not have seemed unfair to the people of the period but rather wonderous acts of God.
[/quote]
This kind of says that God behaved unjustly because it was the in thing of the time and because God was expected to be unjust he did. Yet in Jesus time, also very violent, people expected adulterers to be stoned. But Jesus taught otherwise. It also implies that because things are different in our time, that those violent stories in the Bible are now redundant and are no longer the word of God for us.


[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1318457063' post='2320310']

It is your fault because you should not hire him if he is not qualified to the task. Your gardener left you because you fired him. You rejected him because you see something wrong in him. Nonetheless, it is not proper to blame him for leaving causing your garden dysfunctional because, you are the one who put the rules, restrictions, regulations, and conditions to maintain your garden and thus, you must teach all these things before you condemn him. There is injustice to punish a servant if any shortcoming he has done was just a product of ignorance or an unintentional ineptitude, and not due to insubordination.[center]------------------------------------------[/center]


[/quote]
Well this is my point, which you've got errrr well I think you have. So I'm not sure why you are expounding on it.
Man virtually told God that he wanted his freedom and rejected God (refer .. The prodigal son) So God left man and creation much to its own devices. And hence Man became subject to earthquakes and the inevitable ruin of planet earth. For the faithful we are saying to God that we want to come home, we love him, not for the fact that he will bring us to a world without earthquakes but because we want him. This is all he awaits for.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote]It is written in Gen 3:6 'When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

[center]----------------------------------------[/center]





Is it wrong for a man to listen to his wife, a partner helper given by God, who said, ‘this fruit was good in gaining wisdom’? Is it wrong to listen to someone given by God? Is it damnable to attain wisdom?
[/quote]
And ???? When you've figured out the relevance of the woman being the intermediary between the serpent and man let me know will you.

[quote]So, if Adam is the gardener and you are the owner of that Eden, will you condemn Adam simply because he listened to his wife? Yes, you commanded him ‘Do not eat it’. But how can he possibly know, what he is doing is insubordination (in eating that fruit), if he does not know the right from the wrong before he take it?
[/quote]
Aha! this may be where you misunderstood me. In my allegory God is the gardener, Adam is us. Because we rejected God he is not here to maintain the earth in its Eden like state and so like the prodigal son we are now faced with all manner of adversity, Earthquakes, tsunamis. Unlike the prodigal son though God is always there keeping a watchful eye and helping us when in need.
Adam (us) know right from wrong because God told him in the beginning do not eat of the fruit. He gave you a conscience so you won't forget.

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1318471525' post='2320424']
And ???? When you've figured out the relevance of the woman being the intermediary between the serpent and man let me know will you.


Aha! this may be where you misunderstood me.[b] In my allegory God is the gardener, Adam is us.[/b] Because we rejected God he is not here to maintain the earth in its Eden like state and so like the prodigal son we are now faced with all manner of adversity, Earthquakes, tsunamis. Unlike the prodigal son though God is always there keeping a watchful eye and helping us when in need.
Adam (us) know right from wrong because God told him in the beginning do not eat of the fruit. He gave you a conscience so you won't forget.
[/quote]


You are truly distracted because you cannot interpret even your own allegory. In our little story, it is the owner who rejected the gardener. Now, if God is the gardener, who is Adam? Is Adam the owner of Eden? (Or are we the owner of Eden?) I know what you mean about this prodigal son and we will get there later.


Read your Bible carefully.

When the Lord God curse Adam he said ‘Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it…., (Gen 3:17ff)…..'
So what do you think the woman said to Adam if not ‘(Gen 3:6)…that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom’?

Adam did not only listen to the woman but he heeds to the idea because he ate it. (Gen 3:11-12)

This is happening to a believer who accepts 'other Jesus' as it is written in 2 Cor 11:2-5 ‘3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough’.

Edited October 13, 2011 by reyb

[Momma's Boy]

"This kind of says that God behaved unjustly because it was the in thing of the time and because God was expected to be unjust he did. Yet in Jesus time, also very violent, people expected adulterers to be stoned. But Jesus taught otherwise. It also implies that because things are different in our time, that those violent stories in the Bible are now redundant and are no longer the word of God for us."

God never behaves unjustly. I think his harshness with Israel can be compaired to the raising of a child. When a child is young, they learn alot of rules, alot of do's and do not's (Mosaic law). If they don't follow them they get a spanking (or a time out-40 years- lol). Yet we can see God guiding his people closer and closer to his Heart throughout the OT and teaching them ultimately how he wants them to be and the kind of relationship he wants them to have with Him. A child can't end with rules. Eventually, they have to mature and learn the reasons and ultimately be able to embrace the love behind the rules. He sends his only Son to model this love. Then they learn it's not about rules but about relationship.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Momma's Boy

[reyb]

[quote name='Momma's Boy' timestamp='1318516220' post='2320614']
"This kind of says that God behaved unjustly because it was the in thing of the time and because God was expected to be unjust he did. Yet in Jesus time, also very violent, people expected adulterers to be stoned. But Jesus taught otherwise. It also implies that because things are different in our time, that those violent stories in the Bible are now redundant and are no longer the word of God for us."

God never behaves unjustly. I think his harshness with Israel can be compaired to the raising of a child. When a child is young, they learn alot of rules, alot of do's and do not's (Mosaic law). If they don't follow them they get a spanking (or a time out-40 years- lol). Yet we can see God guiding his people closer and closer to his Heart throughout the OT and teaching them ultimately how he wants them to be and the kind of relationship he wants them to have with Him. A child can't end with rules. Eventually, they have to mature and learn the reasons and ultimately be able to embrace the love behind the rules. He sends his only Son to model this love. Then they learn it's not about rules but about relationship.
[/quote]


You believe that God is just, righteous and do not show favoritism but you yourself deny it.

[Momma's Boy]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1318517833' post='2320631']


You believe that God is just, righteous and do not show favoritism but you yourself deny it.
[/quote]

not sure what this means-please explain how I'm saying that God is unjust?