stevil Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1317517171' post='2313574'] Prayer can never work in the negative. When we got the news that my brother had been killed, I wanted to pray that there had been some mistake in the identification and that it was someone else. Of course this was extremely selfish and I did not do it. Everyone has to die! I just had to accept that it was his time. Numerous good prayers go unanswered. we can only have faith that it is because it is not part of God's plan. [/quote] Sorry to hear about your brother. Does this mean that there is no personal responsibility in prayer. You pray for whatever, and it is up to god to decide if the prayer is worthy or not, or within the plan or not? So prayer is risk free, responsibility free. And if there was already a plan then the event was already going to happen even if you didn't pray? Edited October 2, 2011 by stevil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1317517481' post='2313577'] God is just! Peoples misinterpretation of the Bible makes him seem unjust. In this case they are not reading the word of God, but are reading a book whose meaning they have been blinded to. [/quote] The question is still standing. [quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1312035629' post='2278470'] But can you demonstrate how "god", in particular your god, is "the good". This doesn't exclude god being a "moral monster". But why is god not bound by his own rules and truth? I am a skeptic, at the least. But it seems your answer is suspending critical thinking, this "abandonment" you mention. Is that the only way to believe in God? But while I find the admission that its a mystery refreshing, but it isn't an answer. [/quote] You too believe in Noah’s great flood to cleanse the earth and you also believe that God is just. But you failed to explain even to yourself how God become righteous in such a scenario. It seems you are ignoring to test yourself. You just believe that God is good without knowing his righteousness. Edited October 2, 2011 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1317517987' post='2313583'] Sorry to hear about your brother. [/quote] Thanks, but it happened a long time ago so no problem, I'm sure he is in a better place praying for my salvation. [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1317517987' post='2313583'] Does this mean that there is no personal responsibility in prayer. You pray for whatever, and it is up to god to decide if the prayer is worthy or not, or within the plan or not? So prayer is risk free, responsibility free. And if there was already a plan then the event was already going to happen even if you didn't pray? [/quote] Exactly! Prayer for something that is not right is not prayer and if it does not suit God's master plan it simply will not happen. When a friend of mine told me he was dying from cancer, knowing he was atheist, I told him I would pray for him. But my prayer was not for healing because I knew it was his time. My prayer was as an intercessor for the salvation of his soul, because he was a good man! This relates to the Catholic belief of praying to saints to intercede for us. We (All faithful to God) who have a close relationship with God can intercede for those who may not be able to reach him because of their belief or lack. [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1317522196' post='2313638'] The question is still standing. [/quote] Why? I believe I answered that! [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1317522196' post='2313638'] You too believe in Noah’s great flood to cleanse the earth and you also believe that God is just. But you failed to explain even to yourself how God become righteous in such a scenario. It seems you are ignoring to test yourself. You just believe that God is good without knowing his righteousness. [/quote] Mr Cat I think declares himself an atheist. In which case he would not believe in Noahs great flood, and does not believe in God. He is only questioning the Bible stories and rightly he should, it's a very complex instrument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 This whole debate is funny because for those who don't believe in God, the question is moot... and for those who do, the question is ridiculous. As St Paul said, 'We know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose.' -- Rom 8:28 So, to those who love Him, He can't be a moral monster. To those who don't, what does it matter what you think about Him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 [quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1317543508' post='2313792'] This whole debate is funny because for those who don't believe in God, the question is moot... and for those who do, the question is ridiculous. As St Paul said, 'We know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose.' -- Rom 8:28 So, to those who love Him, He can't be a moral monster. To those who don't, what does it matter what you think about Him? [/quote] I think the question is, does the Bible depict a God who is immoral and if so why? My answer is that the Bible is subject to interpretation. It can be both Gods word or the readers word depending on the persons faith and purpose. Naturally an atheist will see a God who is unjust, because they don't want anything that suggests that they may be wrong. Even children question the logistics of Noah's great flood and modern understanding of genetics pretty much debunks Adam & Eve as being literal. The style of writing in those days was to paint a word picture by comparison to a more easily understood story. Jesus resorted to it frequently with his parables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1317546011' post='2313805'] Naturally an atheist will see a God who is unjust, because they don't want anything that suggests that they may be wrong.[/quote] The majority of atheists are not right or wrong on this. We don't have a belief that there is a god and we don't have a belief that there isn't a god. If looking at the old testament we read what it actually says, literally. We don't interpret, we don't hold that the book is the "Truth" to us it is just a book. We do not interpret it with a base that god is good, that god is perfect. Without this as a starting point how could we possibly conclude that a god who sets bears onto children, who drowns almost everyone and everything is good? We don't give the god of the bible the benefit of the doubt, we read the stories literally for what they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1317547686' post='2313807'] The majority of atheists are not right or wrong on this. We don't have a belief that there is a god and we don't have a belief that there isn't a god. If looking at the old testament we read what it actually says, literally. We don't interpret, we don't hold that the book is the "Truth" to us it is just a book. We do not interpret it with a base that god is good, that god is perfect. Without this as a starting point how could we possibly conclude that a god who sets bears onto children, who drowns almost everyone and everything is good? We don't give the god of the bible the benefit of the doubt, we read the stories literally for what they are. [/quote] Well, that's my point. since the Bible is simply a book to you, you read it with literalistic eyes - and see and judge God according to what you think you understand. That's why I recommend God, A Biography, the book because it tries to view God through those eyes - of what was written about Him and you would probably like it. As for me though, the Bible is an inspired word of God that can be used to help me come closer to understanding Him and what He is trying to say to humans. I know that just as I can't ever comprehend the mind of God, I will also never be able to fully comprehend what is written in the scriptures -- I view both God and the scriptures through the eyes of a creature, not a Creator. I can only gain glimpses into what He is trying to tell me by the examples that are written there - and when they don't make sense to me, I trust in Him because I know His love for me beyond all doubt from personal experience. Perhaps that's the difference between reading the lines (those who don't know or acknowledge Him) and reading between the lines (those who know and love Him). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1317540985' post='2313769'] Why? I believe I answered that! Mr Cat I think declares himself an atheist. In which case he would not believe in Noahs great flood, and does not believe in God. He is only questioning the Bible stories and rightly he should, it's a very complex instrument. [/quote] He is actually ‘questioning’ your reasoning on how God is just in that kind of scenario. I know you said ‘God is just’ but how come God is just in that kind of ‘killing the entire humanity’. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 (edited) [quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1317543508' post='2313792'] This whole debate is funny because for those who don't believe in God, the question is moot... and for those who do, the question is ridiculous. As St Paul said, 'We know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose.' -- Rom 8:28 So, to those who love Him, He can't be a moral monster. To those who don't, what does it matter what you think about Him? [/quote] [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1317546011' post='2313805'] I think the question is, does the Bible depict a God who is immoral and if so why? My answer is that the Bible is subject to interpretation. It can be both Gods word or the readers word depending on the persons faith and purpose[b]. Naturally an atheist will see a God who is unjust, because they don't want anything that suggests that they may be wrong. [/b]Even children question the logistics of Noah's great flood and modern understanding of genetics pretty much debunks Adam & Eve as being literal. The style of writing in those days was to paint a word picture by comparison to a more easily understood story. Jesus resorted to it frequently with his parables. [/quote] [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1317547686' post='2313807'] [b]The majority of atheists are not right or wrong on this. We don't have a belief that there is a god and we don't have a belief that there isn't a god.[/b] [b]If looking at the old testament we read what it actually says, literally. We don't interpret, we don't hold that the book is the "Truth" to us it is just a book[/b]. We do not interpret it with a base that god is good, that god is perfect. Without this as a starting point how could we possibly conclude that a god who sets bears onto children, who drowns almost everyone and everything is good? We don't give the god of the bible the benefit of the doubt, we read the stories literally for what they are. [/quote] The question is argumentative to those who do not believe since they are trying to see God’s righteousness through the words of believers. While those who believe that God is just but failed to see God’s righteousness (or in what way He became just), the question is ridiculous since they just accepted it by faith. So their discussion leads to something like this: ‘Have faith, believe and do not ask for its reasoning’ this is what believers are trying to say to those who do not believe. Then, the unbelievers’ talkback, ‘Do you want us to accept and believe what you believe just because you say so?’ Show to us how your God became just? God is just!!! Prove it!!! Have faith you unbelieving soul!! No, no, no, because it is written in your book that your God is a murderer, killer, monster and an unjust God. As it is written in the book of Romans, “God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you." Edited October 2, 2011 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1317547686' post='2313807'] The majority of atheists are not right or wrong on this. We don't have a belief that there is a god and we don't have a belief that there isn't a god. [/quote] If you are not sure if there is or isn't a God then you are not atheist, you are agnostic. [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1317547686' post='2313807'] If looking at the old testament we read what it actually says, literally. We don't interpret, we don't hold that the book is the "Truth" to us it is just a book. We do not interpret it with a base that god is good, that god is perfect. [/quote] I was trying to explain/understand what Mr Cat has been saying. And have been saying that it cannot be read literally. I'm aware that I may be at odds with the Church by having this view point but I don't understand why, because in actuality the Church only claims infallibility on matters of faith and morals. Interpretation of the scriptures is and needs to be open. Faith is an ever growing thing it is not static. If the Bible were literal and logical this situation could not be. I think the Church often tries to be like the PC system it wants to remain backwards compatible and that just doesn't work. As I've said before the Bible read by an atheist is worthless. It is not an historical document and it is rather boring to read it as fiction. If you read it as a fictional story of a fictional God who is immoral then why bother reading it? Sense that makes non. [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1317547686' post='2313807'] Without this as a starting point how could we possibly conclude that a god who sets bears onto children, who drowns almost everyone and everything is good? We don't give the god of the bible the benefit of the doubt, we read the stories literally for what they are. [/quote] Here's an example of the error of non believers who do not know God. Okay, this man gets angry he prays to God for revenge, the bears beset his tormentors. How can you conclude that God actually did it? Animals are sensitive creatures, they may have sensed malice in those children and acted in defence of themselves. IMHO The notion that God set the bears on them is laughable. If there were any metaphysical interference at all it would be the devil trying to make God look evil to discourage people. And I've already explained that many think the great flood to be a metaphor for something much deeper due to the fact that it is totally illogical as a literal story. And the real interpretation would not depict God as immoral. As said before death is only bad to an atheist. if God decides to kill me today it will because my mission is complete and he wants to bring me to his judgement. Hopefully he will be pleased with me if not then my fate will be my own choice, not his, because he loves me. God created all people for the purpose of eternal life with him. It's your choice to take it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 (edited) [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1317572836' post='2313915'] So their discussion leads to something like this: ‘Have faith, believe and do not ask for its reasoning’ this is what believers are trying to say to those who do not believe. [/quote] [url="http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2011/09/modern-biology-and-original-sin-part-ii.html"]Link[/url] [quote] faith, rightly understood, is in no way at odds with reason. On the contrary, faith is, in a sense, grounded in reason[/quote] My faith is founded on the rock of good solid Mr Spock reason. [quote]God the beginning and end of all things can be known with certitude through the natural light of human reason from created things. [/quote] [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1317572836' post='2313915'] As it is written in the book of Romans, “God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you." [/quote] Not sure what you're saying, but it sounds a little harsh! Edited October 2, 2011 by Mark of the Cross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1317591899' post='2314125'] If you are not sure if there is or isn't a God then you are not atheist, you are agnostic. [/quote] Agnostic pertains to knowledge, not belief. A Theist can also be an Agnostic and an Atheist can also be an Agnostic, so if someone tells you that they are Agnostic, this doesn't actually tell you if the believe in god or not. Atheist means having a lack of belief in god. A strong Atheist believes that there is no god, a weak Atheist does not have a belief either way. Most Atheists are weak Atheists, but generally put burden of proof onto the god theory, hence live their lives as if there is no god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1317593956' post='2314142'] Atheist means having a lack of belief in god. A strong Atheist believes that there is no god, a weak Atheist does not have a belief either way. Most Atheists are weak Atheists, but generally put burden of proof onto the god theory, hence live their lives as if there is no god. [/quote] I thought that was the definition of agnostic. However moot point I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1317595960' post='2314153'] I thought that was the definition of agnostic. However moot point I suppose. [/quote] People are often confused by this. The term is not well known or publicised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 If what you claim is true that …. [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1317592748' post='2314135'] My faith is founded on the rock of good solid Mr Spock reason. and... [quote] faith, rightly understood, is in no way at odds with reason. On the contrary, faith is, in a sense, grounded in reason [/quote] [/quote] ….then, explain in what way your God become righteous and just if this Noah’s flood is a historical reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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