Is God A Moral Monster?

[organwerke]

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Edited September 29, 2011 by organwerke

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1317320206' post='2312396']
So neither myself nor your brother can get acceptance from you? Not as we are, as dare I say it "Atheists"
[/quote]
My daughter is agnostic. She has said that I must respect her belief and not preach to her, which I think that is fair. But she says I may pray for her! This is fair on her behalf because she knows how much I love her and[b] how important it is for me to be able to pray[/b] for her. If she denied me praying for her she would be the one that is selfish.
We have to accept your right to your belief and your right to voice it, but we don't have to accept not trying to correct you unless we are invading your privacy. You are writing on an open forum, we have a right to our opinion of your posts. We would only be wrong if we were to write, phone, email, or knock on your door after you had requested that we should not. .

[Mr.Cat]

Comrade stevil, it's alright if they pray for you, but I tend to agree it doesn't have to be mentioned. Even Jesus said to go pray privately: "[color=#ff0000]But thou when thou shalt pray, enter into thy chamber, and having shut the door, pray to thy Father in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret will repay thee.[/color]" It's not like their appealing to an all-powerful god to manipulate you into changing your mind so you agree with them!

[stevil]

Well, it is obvious that I don't understand what prayer actually is.
Sometimes I think people pray in the hope that they will get what they want. I have a friend that prayed to her god so that she would have a sunny day on her wedding day.
I personally find this hard to accept, but I am telling you of my inner thoughts here. I did not judge this woman or tell her I thought she was wrong.

I love boxing and one of my sporting heros is David Tua, he's a Kiwi/Samoan so I have a bit of national pride in him.
Anyway, I know before he fights he prays to his god in the hope that his opponent isn't hurt. He does not pray for the win. This seems reasonable to me, I would have a lot less respect if he prayed for a win and it seems very caring and compassionate to pray for the safety of his opponent, especially when he is going to be the one inflicting damage on the opponent.

But when a person tells me that they are going to pray for me, for me to find faith in their god, it certainly makes me think that this person wants me to change, like they cannot accept me for who I am and cannot respect me for my stance on things. I certainly don't think they are doing me any favours and are actually operating contrary to my wishes, but it seems that they think they are doing this for me. I think they are doing this for themselves, because it makes them feel good to think that they have asked their god to help me, to put me onto the "correct" path.
I have not been asked if I want this. This is not for me, only for the benefit of the person making the prayer.

Anyway, I didn't really want to elaborate on this. I don't want to complain. I know Aya had nothing but good intentions. I accept that Aya can do what Aya wants. I cannot, and should not desire to control Aya's actions or thoughts or prayers. I will respect Aya's desire to pray however he/she wants, whether I am in those prayers or not. I certainly have no belief that it will make a difference on my part.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1317359104' post='2312744']
Anyway, I know before he fights he prays to his god in the hope that his opponent isn't hurt. He does not pray for the win. This seems reasonable to me, I would have a lot less respect if he prayed for a win and it seems very caring and compassionate to pray for the safety of his opponent, especially when he is going to be the one inflicting damage on the opponent.
[/quote]
This is correct prayer. To pray for his own safety is also Okay. To pray for a win would be wrong because it would be asking God to let you cheat!

[quote]But when a person tells me that they are going to pray for me, for me to find faith in their god, it certainly makes me think that this person wants me to change, like they cannot accept me for who I am
[/quote]
It's a matter of perspective. You don't want people to pray for you to find God because of where you are now. But if you did find God then you would know that what they wanted was the best wishes for you. In their view it's the best possible outcome. No one is trying to change who you are. Prayer is for what is best for you. In our belief it would be to find God. Even if God were not real believing and living faith is still better than going through life thinking it has no purpose. To pray for you to have faith is to wish the best possible enjoyment of life either real or not.

[quote]I think they are doing this for themselves, because it makes them feel good to think that they have asked their god to help me, to put me onto the "correct" path.
I have not been asked if I want this. This is not for me, only for the benefit of the person making the prayer.
[/quote]
True believers believe they are acting with heartfelt purpose for their God and what he wants for the person. They wish to please the person and God as one not themselves.

[quote]
I know Aya had nothing but good intentions. I accept that Aya can do what Aya wants. I cannot, and should not desire to control Aya's actions or thoughts or prayers. I will respect Aya's desire to pray however he/she wants, whether I am in those prayers or not. I certainly have no belief that it will make a difference on my part.
[/quote]
I would imagine Aya is a very compassionate and loving person who only wishes you to find happiness. If you were content in your atheism you would not be writing here. I think as all people do, you are searching. Even the faithful search we search for improvement in ourselves and our faith. '...Alone I am nothing, with you I can do anything....'

[stevil]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1317368965' post='2312762']
If you were content in your atheism you would not be writing here. I think as all people do, you are searching.[/quote]
Although I am very content not having a god to believe in, I am searching.

Not for god, but searching for an understanding of people who are different to myself. I have certainly learnt alot in the time I have been here.

[Aya Sophia]

Tried to contribute a thoughtful reply last night but, as seems to happen a lot with me, hit an odd combination of keys and my text vanished, twice. (Won't say how long it took me to post those paras the other day in this thread!) Now it's Sat which comes with a to do list of its own (including 4PM Confession) so a thoughtful reply must wait or never be.

How about this prayer (or, call it a wish, if preferred) for stevil: "for the fulfillment of your heart's desires." (Believers, of course, know there are certain meanings in such a prayer than may not be apparent to the non-believer but never mind - I think it cannot be objectionable to be the object of such a "wish".)

Edited October 1, 2011 by Aya Sophia

[reyb]

[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1311316686' post='2273654']
How many people has god killed, according to the Bible?

[url="http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2010/04/drunk-with-blood-gods-killings-in-bible.html"]http://dwindlinginun...s-in-bible.html[/url]

What is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?

[url="http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/06/which-is-more-violent-bible-or-quran.html"]http://dwindlinginun...e-or-quran.html[/url]

Cruelty and violence in the Bible?

[url="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html"]http://skepticsannot...uelty/long.html[/url]




Some thoughts for consideration.
[/quote]


Up to this moment, I am still waiting for some reply to belie the impression given by this thread that God is an unjust God.

It is not unusual for Catholics or even non Catholics to comment, ‘It is hard to understand or I do not know why’ since it is obvious that to ‘massacre’ the entire humanity including innocent children (except for some very lucky figures like Noah and his family as if you are watching a movie) is an unjust act. This is a test for those who profess to be Christians because seeing it is the same as knowing the righteousness of God (which is not or should not be hidden from True Christians because it was already revealed by God through Christ)

Edited October 1, 2011 by reyb

[Aya Sophia]

"Revenons a nos moutons . . . " Sorry for the straying thread - thanks for bringing it back on topic.

My agnosticism as a young person (before age 26) revolved entirely around the question of whether God was "good" or not. The agonising, distressing question that kept me, at best, in a state of disapproval of God and, at worst, in horror was: how could a good God allow all the atrocious, abysmal, unspeakable suffering there is in the world?

Still I do not have an answer to this question but I pose it differently. Now I ask: Why does suffering remain central in God's plan, central in the unfolding of Salvation History, central in the journey to God of each of his human creatures? What is this great and terrible [u]mystery[/u] of suffering?

My disapproval and horror in the face of a “monstrous god” are gone. So, although, strictly speaking I do not have an answer, in a very significant way I do because the question really is: how does one move from a position of disapproval, hubris, accusation, anguish, fear and horror towards a “monstrous god” to one of an appropriate humility and awe in the face of a great and terrible mystery hidden in the most unfathomable Mystery of all – God Himself, He Who Is and upon whom my own being is wholly contingent?

One moves positions not through apprehension of a concept but through contact with a Person, not in understanding something but in experiential knowledge of Someone, the man-god Jesus of Nazareth. This contact and knowledge are a divine gift, a grace, that causes non-believers to believe. The believer has an understanding (an integrated whole-person understanding, not just rationally, in the intellect) of how the very Person of Jesus Christ can be "the answer," at once comprehensive and insuperable. Belief allows a person to see Christ as the prism through which all of human history, in all its misery and glory, is refracted. Until we see through Him we cannot understand what it is we are looking at. Until we meet Him in the ground of our being we cannot have a hope of an “answer” to the question of our suffering.

P.S. We have two choices in this life, with regard to suffering: we can either suffer or we can love and suffer. We cannot not suffer. Ergo, another good ques is not "why suffering" ("why" seems actually to be none of my business) but "how do I respond to suffering"?

Edited October 1, 2011 by Aya Sophia

[reyb]

You do not answer the question. Is God an unjust God or not? (in relation to the subject topic)

Edited October 1, 2011 by reyb

[Winchester]

By definition, God would have to be just.

[Aya Sophia]

Roger that. God is just (although we may not understand his justice.) God is also merciful (although we may not understand....)

[stevil]

[quote name='Aya Sophia' timestamp='1317475979' post='2313337']
for stevil: "for the fulfillment of your heart's desires." (I think it cannot be objectionable to be the object of such a "wish".)
[/quote]
This is much better, it does not seem that you wish me to change into something that you would find more acceptable.
However you have essentially turned my desires into your prayer by proxy. So unwittingly I am praying without wanting to pray.

If prayer is truly powerful then this could be a dangerous thing. My own heart's desires could be that all religion is removed from society. It could be that my worst enemy is to die a horrible and painful death, it could be that I become very wealthy (which might come at the expense other peoples' livelihoods).
In this way you would have to truly trust my heart's desires before turning them into your own prayers.

But, I presume you believe that your god does not fulfill undeserving prayer, so this takes all the risk away.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1317515712' post='2313563']


If prayer is truly powerful then this could be a dangerous thing. My own heart's desires could be that all religion is removed from society. It could be that my worst enemy is to die a horrible and painful death, it could be that I become very wealthy (which might come at the expense other peoples' livelihoods).
In this way you would have to truly trust my heart's desires before turning them into your own prayers.

[/quote]
Prayer can never work in the negative. When we got the news that my brother had been killed, I wanted to pray that there had been some mistake in the identification and that it was someone else. Of course this was extremely selfish and I did not do it. Everyone has to die! I just had to accept that it was his time. Numerous good prayers go unanswered. we can only have faith that it is because it is not part of God's plan.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1317494101' post='2313443']
You do not answer the question. Is God an unjust God or not? (in relation to the subject topic)
[/quote]
God is just! Peoples misinterpretation of the Bible makes him seem unjust. In this case they are not reading the word of God, but are reading a book whose meaning they have been blinded to.