Is God A Moral Monster?

[sixpence]

Admittedly, I have not read every post in this thread (though I do intend to soon), but I am failing to understand your problem with the concept that God CANNOT be immoral.
You can either assume that morality comes from God, (eg. it is His will), and that therefore he cannot be immoral...
OR assume that our "morality" is the product of natural selection/ evolution of social behavior etc. Under that assumption why on earth would ANY non-human entity be expected to obey the rule of human "morality" whether it was a cat or a deity or an alien?

edit: grammar fail

Edited September 23, 2011 by sixpence

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1316738222' post='2308706']
I am not wanting to read anything [u][b]into[/b][/u] the Bible, I have merely represented what is written there, no interpretations...
[/quote]
I thought you read into the Bible that God is a moral monster. If it is merely written there then please point it out.

Obviously from your responses we don't understand each other. A fact that I have been aware of from a previous discussion with you. When I said you were difficult to understand, I did not necessarily mean that in a derogatory way. You will recall that I left open the possibility that you are clever, which could also mean that I am floundering in my understanding of what you are on about. You should have been able to pick up that I gave you the benefit of the doubt at least! I have continued to respond to you...I said amusement.. maybe that's a little harsh. Lets change it to, I have been having an interesting discussion with you. But at this time you are not responding to what I am trying to convey and have misunderstood most of what I wrote. So yes I agree with you it's time to let it rest. You say that you are a qualified debater. I am not and as I've always maintained I write on these forums more for my own learning and exercising the few neurons that I have left. than trying to win debates which would be similar to going around picking fights for the pleasure of beating the dung out of someone. It's not very Christian. I have no ill feelings toward you, it has been fun even though I'm a little disappointed that I was not able to convey more accurately what I was attempting too. I hope we can consider each other at least jousting friends. G'day mate!

Edited September 23, 2011 by Mark of the Cross

[Socrates]

Through the sin of Adam, everybody must die. None of us makes it out of life alive. As God is the author of life and death, it is up to him to decide how and when death takes place, not us.

An atheist would have to believe that morality is simply a set of rules invented by human beings, nothing more.
There is no reason to think that an infinite God must be forced to play by rules made up by humans.

But since apparently the OP has apparently already decided that God is just a silly made-up character, this is all pointless and begging the question. I mean, there's no reason for me rail on for pages and pages against the actions of Daffy Duck (or should I type that in all lc as "daffy duck"?).

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1316812667' post='2309022']I thought you read into the Bible that God is a moral monster. If it is merely written there then please point it out.

Obviously from your responses we don't understand each other. A fact that I have been aware of from a previous discussion with you. When I said you were difficult to understand, I did not necessarily mean that in a derogatory way. You will recall that I left open the possibility that you are clever, which could also mean that I am floundering in my understanding of what you are on about. You should have been able to pick up that I gave you the benefit of the doubt at least! I have continued to respond to you...I said amusement.. maybe that's a little harsh. Lets change it to, I have been having an interesting discussion with you. But at this time you are not responding to what I am trying to convey and have misunderstood most of what I wrote. So yes I agree with you it's time to let it rest. You say that you are a qualified debater. I am not and as I've always maintained I write on these forums more for my own learning and exercising the few neurons that I have left. than trying to win debates which would be similar to going around picking fights for the pleasure of beating the dung out of someone. It's not very Christian. I have no ill feelings toward you, it has been fun even though I'm a little disappointed that I was not able to convey more accurately what I was attempting too. I hope we can consider each other at least jousting friends. G'day mate![/quote]I think you are trying to defend an unsupportable position by appealing to informal logic fallacies or denial of some kind. But the only references I can think of off the top of my head where I call god a "[i]moral monster[/i]" are [i]"what if[/i]" situations intended to spark a reply. As I mentioned already, I don't believe in "god" and I view the bible as fictional, I have no motivation to reasonably prove that a non-existent god in a fictional story is somehow a monster. But as I mentioned before, this discussion never attained the depth I hoped it would, which is why I originally posted it to the theology section. But the outrageous lack of coherent, reasonable, or logical rebuttal to this kind of accusation is a bit surprising.

But this concludes our non-discussion... and I am generally indifferent about you and most people in this thread. I know that this is you defending your faith from what you perceive as a threat, is an expected and normal response.[quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1316807916' post='2309000']Admittedly, I have not read every post in this thread (though I do intend to soon), but I am failing to understand your problem with the concept that God CANNOT be immoral.
You can either assume that morality comes from God, (eg. it is His will), and that therefore he cannot be immoral...
OR assume that our "morality" is the product of natural selection/ evolution of social behavior etc. Under that assumption why on earth would ANY non-human entity be expected to obey the rule of human "morality" whether it was a cat or a deity or an alien?

edit: grammar fail[/quote]That was one aspect of the discussion that I ventured with Winchester, honestly I think if he admitted that god can do bad/wrong acts... or at least appear to do so in the context of the bible... I think I would of had a lot more respect for Winchester in this discussion. But I would of then expected something supportable from the Bible to demonstrate how this is so, otherwise it would just be an arbitrary and convenient "[i]interpretation[/i]". So this isn't my problem.

Shintoism for example has no problems in admitting their gods and goddesses are capable of doing evil deeds...

But in regards to "[i]god[/i]" following his own rules... In some nations their elected officials have immunity from the law, at least till their term of office is complete. In almost all nations diplomats are granted this privileged immunity. But when it comes to OUR laws we can go to the law books and show how they are specifically exempted and even how they are to be held responsible later. But no where in the bible does this "[i]god[/i]" specifically exempt himself and even if he does, it still makes that god hypocritical to do differently or then expect his faithful to do differently. It's a problem of appealing to authority and special pleading.

Though as the topic suggests... it's not the morality of "[i]god[/i]" or his actions that are necessarily in question, but if that "[i]god[/i]" for his attitudes and behaviors could be considered a monster. Because of the lack of reply to previous points and focusing on this aspect, I am suspecting that maybe there is no defense to this. Because a monster can still do good things but be a monster...

Edited September 24, 2011 by Mr.Cat

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1316812691' post='2309023']An atheist would have to believe that morality is simply a set of rules invented by human beings, nothing more.
There is no reason to think that an infinite God must be forced to play by rules made up by humans.[/quote]A nihilist would argue the arbitrary nature of morality, which even if your god made up that morality, it is still arbitrarily made up... just by a supposed god. [b]Atheists are not necessarily nihilists, its two different philosophies[/b]. But thanks to previous encounters you have displayed to me serious problems with overly generalizing issues the slippery slope fallacy, so I have no intention on discussing this with you... because you will eventually just call me a communist and later claim I'm some immigrant trying to take your job...

No thanks.

Edited September 24, 2011 by Mr.Cat

[MithLuin]

[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1316821616' post='2309053']
But the outrageous lack of coherent, reasonable, or logical rebuttal to this kind of accusation is a bit surprising.

But this concludes our non-discussion... and I am generally indifferent about you and most people in this thread. I know that this is you defending your faith from what you perceive as a threat, is an expected and normal response.

Though as the topic suggests... it's not the morality of "[i]god[/i]" or his actions that are necessarily in question, but if that "[i]god[/i]" for his attitudes and behaviors could be considered a monster. Because of the lack of reply to previous points and focusing on this aspect, I am suspecting that maybe there is no defense to this. Because a monster can still do good things but be a monster...
[/quote]

*is sad* I didn't think I was being incoherent. [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/114302-is-god-a-moral-monster/page__st__115"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/114302-is-god-a-moral-monster/page__st__115[/url]

What is a monster?

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1316822974' post='2309064'] *is sad* I didn't think I was being incoherent. [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/114302-is-god-a-moral-monster/page__st__115"]http://www.phatmass....r/page__st__115[/url]

What is a monster?[/quote]You are not offering a rebuttal, you are offering a link to someone else. So this comment is not applicable to you.

MithLuin, from my casual observations you are a really polite and caring person, so you are automatically disqualified from the majority of my negative comments focused at religion. If you are as I suspect you are... you are more of a rarity rather than a norm.



Because one of the problems you face in justifying these sorts of acts as merely "[i]god said so[/i]" or because god is god or because god can do whatever he wants is simple... Muslim terrorists do exactly the same thing. In fact there are more than some people who have killed others believing it was wanted by their god. If we are to maintain a free and civil society these sorts of acts cannot be permitted...

Edited September 24, 2011 by Mr.Cat

[Ice_nine]

I don't understand what the point of this thread is Mr. Cat. If you don't believe God exists at all, what are you trying to argue? That the idea of God is dangerous? That people use the idea of God to do evil things?

[stevil]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1316822974' post='2309064']

What is a monster?
[/quote]
I was getting bored of this thread, but, yeah, a little interested now.
A good monster, is this something like the cookie monster, or quosimodo, or the beast from beauty and the beast, or maybe the thing from the fantstic four?
Please define monster?

[MithLuin]

IceNine, It is my impression that he would like to share his concerns with us so that we could have to opportunity to question how 'good' both our God and our religion are. His desire is to spark conversation (...or outrage).


But I was offering a rebuttal. Yes, I linked to what the pope had to say on the history of legal thought in Europe, but I also shared my own thoughts on how one should approach the idea of God killing people. Guess I linked to the wrong post by accident: it was the one before that one [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/114302-is-god-a-moral-monster/page__st__114"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/114302-is-god-a-moral-monster/page__st__114[/url] My thought...is that God (being God) is ultimately responsible for the life and death of every single human being who has ever lived. Hence, the 'death toll' (if we're tallying that) is [i]much[/i] higher than the ridiculously small figures you've offered thus far. And I have suggested that there is nothing monstrous about this, because as Job teaches us: "The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away; blessed be the name of the Lord." One of the things that the Lord took away from Job were his children; they all died in a tragic accident. I was not the only poster who brought up the concept of God giving us life - he brings us into this life and he can take us right back out of it.

Why is it so bad if you or I murder someone? Aren't we...playing God? Deciding what day that person's life will come to an end? I don't see anything wrong with God exercising the power of life and death over creation, so there is nothing monstrous about God's actions to me. I see God as loving in the way he deals with creation.


In real life, I am a heartless wretch. On the internet, I am polite. So, I thank you for your kind words, but rest assured that I am no more loving than anyone else here, and am actually likely much less caring.

Edited September 24, 2011 by MithLuin

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1316839567' post='2309155']
IceNine, It is my impression that he would like to share his concerns with us so that we could have to opportunity to question how 'good' both our God and our religion are. His desire is to spark conversation (...or outrage).
[/quote]

Yes but as a non-theist, it all becomes a matter of perception to him. "God doesn't really exist" so it merely becomes a question of what a religion teaches and how believers to perceive God to be. Most believers don't perceive God to be a moral monster, to which he says "look at all the bad things God did in the Bible," to which believers say "this doesn't make God evil" which he concludes, I assume, to demonstrate cognitive dissonance.

I haven't read the whole thread. It's too incoherent at this point, but it might help if I knew what exactly he was trying to prove or find out.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1316836899' post='2309147']I don't understand what the point of this thread is Mr. Cat.[/quote]Technically I didn't. It was a split from the theology section, someone else made the topic "Is God A Moral Monster?" I contributed the links to be appropriately addressed and contribute to that discussion... someone threw a tantrum and it was moved here, over my objections and I was warned for making my objections, since I had no desire to argue about it. However, considering the volume of reply I decided to join in.
[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1316836899' post='2309147']If you don't believe God exists at all, what are you trying to argue? That the idea of God is dangerous? That people use the idea of God to do evil things?[/quote]I don't necessarily have a point to argue, but I am definitely inclined to see these biblical stories as portraying the "bibical god" as a monster... but think about it. If you didn't believe in Christianity or the Bible, how would you see it?

Also I hope to challenge my open mindedness and to see the perspective of Catholics who tend to be more receptive of such challenges, I tried to continue some of the discussions here...
[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1316839423' post='2309154']I was getting bored of this thread...[/quote]Fortunately I spend only a few minutes reading and replying to this thread daily, otherwise it would become painful.
[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1316839567' post='2309155']IceNine, It is my impression that he would like to share his concerns with us so that we could have to opportunity to question how 'good' both our God and our religion are. His desire is to spark conversation (...or outrage).[/quote]Yes... there is an aspect of sharing my questions, concerns, and maybe even recommendations. But because most of this is... "[i]HOW DARE YOU OFFEND MY GOD[/i]"... well... The discussion I had hoped for didn't happen.

Largely why I continually call the majority of this topic a non-discussion.
[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1316839567' post='2309155']But I was offering a rebuttal. Yes, I linked to what the pope had to say on the history of legal thought in Europe, but I also shared my own thoughts on how one should approach the idea of God killing people. Guess I linked to the wrong post by accident: it was the one before that one [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/114302-is-god-a-moral-monster/page__st__114"]http://www.phatmass....r/page__st__114[/url] My thought...is that God (being God) is ultimately responsible for the life and death of every single human being who has ever lived. Hence, the 'death toll' (if we're tallying that) is [i]much[/i] higher than the ridiculously small figures you've offered thus far. And I have suggested that there is nothing monstrous about this, because as Job teaches us: "The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away; blessed be the name of the Lord." One of the things that the Lord took away from Job were his children; they all died in a tragic accident. I was not the only poster who brought up the concept of God giving us life - he brings us into this life and he can take us right back out of it.[/quote]My parents gave me life, but they don't have the right to brutally murder me on whim.

This death toll of millions you reference... you call ridiculously small figures? A single death is a tragedy... and it is even more regrettable when it is not by natural causes or worse when it is for bad cause.
[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1316839567' post='2309155']Why is it so bad if you or I murder someone? Aren't we...playing God? Deciding what day that person's life will come to an end? I don't see anything wrong with God exercising the power of life and death over creation, so there is nothing monstrous about God's actions to me. I see God as loving in the way he deals with creation.[/quote]Yeah... your god certainly loves us to DEATH. Literally. Didn't enjoy the joke? I wonder why...
[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1316839567' post='2309155']In real life, I am a heartless wretch. On the internet, I am polite. So, I thank you for your kind words, but rest assured that I am no more loving than anyone else here, and am actually likely much less caring.[/quote]I apologize then, mistaken identity and such.

Edited September 24, 2011 by Mr.Cat

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1316864553' post='2309209']
Technically I didn't. It was a split from the theology section, someone else made the topic "Is God A Moral Monster?" I contributed the links to be appropriately addressed and contribute to that discussion... someone threw a tantrum and it was moved here, over my objections and I was warned for making my objections, since I had no desire to argue about it. However, considering the volume of reply I decided to join in.
I don't necessarily have a point to argue, but I am definitely inclined to see these biblical stories as portraying as a monster... but think about it. If you didn't believe in Christianity or the Bible, how would you see it? To challenge my open mindedness and to see the perspective of Catholics who tend to be more receptive of such challenges, I tried to continue some of the discussions here such as with Winchester.
[/quote]


I am curious too as to what your ultimate aim is here on phatmass. You profess not to believe in God so why even bother with those of us whom you think are brainwashed (or however you see us)? We are happy in our 'ignorance' or however it is that you see us. At least I am. I am happy that you are happy with your situation too, but if you are so sure and happy about your position - why spend so much time arguing it? Are you trying to 'save' us? Or 'enlighten' us or what?

I don't believe God is a moral monster because I don't believe that a Creator can be judged by His creation since he set the game in motion and made the rules and can change them. That might make Him arbitrary perhaps, but I don't even see that since I believe He is a God of goodness and His intention in the good of each individual soul. But even if you could convince me (or anyone else) of your way of seeing God - what would be the point? Opinions are opinions. Are you trying to convince yourself of something? I just don't get it.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1316865089' post='2309210']I am curious too as to what your ultimate aim is here on phatmass. You profess not to believe in God so why even bother with those of us whom you think are brainwashed (or however you see us)? We are happy in our 'ignorance' or however it is that you see us. At least I am. I am happy that you are happy with your situation too, but if you are so sure and happy about your position - why spend so much time arguing it? Are you trying to 'save' us? Or 'enlighten' us or what?[/quote]Honestly... I take more pleasure at most of you being theists... I have no intention in converting anyone, [i]except possibly to the metric system[/i]. [i]Soon your yard sticks will be meter sticks! [/i]However I see most of you as "[i]indoctrinated[/i]", which is the appropriate term in any instance.

I don't really consider any of this an "[i]argument[/i]". I have been a member for phatmass for a long time... I came here originally when I was a devote and traditional Catholic, upon insistent invitation from The Archon and his sister ([i]he may now regret that[/i]). But really... you could of just read the reply above... I guess that is too hard for you? Looking at our profiles we joined about the same time.
[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1316865089' post='2309210']I don't believe God is a moral monster because I don't believe that a Creator can be judged by His creation since he set the game in motion and made the rules and can change them. That might make Him arbitrary perhaps, but I don't even see that since I believe He is a God of goodness and His intention in the good of each individual soul. But even if you could convince me (or anyone else) of your way of seeing God - what would be the point? Opinions are opinions. Are you trying to convince yourself of something? I just don't get it.[/quote]There is possibly one more subtle motive that I have to continuing such discussions here... It provides feedback that I can reference back to when I am having actual discussions with people. It isn't my responses that gets them, its the religious people's.

In my story of "[i]loosing faith[/i]" it wasn't atheists who handed to me the sensible reasons for their cause... it was the utter lack of reasonable rebuttal and sometimes hostility to atheism that made me start to question myself more. And if there is a threat that is it... not me. As I mentioned to Winchester before in this same topic.

Edited September 24, 2011 by Mr.Cat

[Mr.Cat]

Skimming over the topic as a whole... I am wondering how much longer I can drag out a non-discussion for the purpose of hoping someone has sincere intentions of having an actual discussion... But I don't think that is so. There is also a lot of repeated information, questions, and arguments... I don't think anyone is quite serious about this.

So I am indefinitely taking my leave from this topic.

Edited September 24, 2011 by Mr.Cat