So Why Aren't You Catholic Yet?

[Lil Red]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311754010' post='2276745']
Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying.
You want me to leave this forum?
You think that I am harrassing people here?
Why the United States in particular?
Why Potestants?[/quote]
I don't get it either

[Adrestia]

I have some further thoughts on this:
[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311372246' post='2274003']
2. You could say that they have excercised their personal responsibility by deligating to their church but ultimately it means they have deligated that responsibility
[/quote]

I believe that it's erroneous to say that believing the teachings of the church is akin to delegation of personal responsibility. As you probably guessed from my avatar, I am a scientist. Like most scientists, I have an innate curiosity that makes me want to understand everything. There is no delegating. It is because of my religious beliefs that I feel responsible not only for myself, but for everyone else. It is because of my religious beliefs that I accept suffering (or at least try to) for the good of others. My religion holds me to a higher standard than I would hold myself.

[stevil]

[quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1311782817' post='2276872']
I have some further thoughts on this:


I believe that it's erroneous to say that believing the teachings of the church is akin to delegation of personal responsibility. As you probably guessed from my avatar, I am a scientist. Like most scientists, I have an innate curiosity that makes me want to understand everything. There is no delegating. It is because of my religious beliefs that I feel responsible not only for myself, but for everyone else. It is because of my religious beliefs that I accept suffering (or at least try to) for the good of others. My religion holds me to a higher standard than I would hold myself.
[/quote]
That's interesting because I feel that my "morals" are higher than what would be allowed were I to belong to a religion. (BTW I am not the only Atheist that thinks this way)
For example, as a humanist I feel all people should be treated with respect and tolerance and equality regardless or gender, age, race, religion, sexual orientation, skin colour, lifestyle choice, social/economic background, culture...
but I don't feel some religions teach or act this way.
I have had some honest people on this site tell me that they don't understand all about their religion, e.g. all male preisthood, and other things, possibly the anti gay sentiment. But they have gone on to say that they will go with their perception of the church's stance as they think the Church knows better than themselves. This is understandable in someways but is a delegation of this personal responsibility and could result in a violation of treating others with respect, tolerance and equality (IMHO)

[Adrestia]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311794181' post='2276957']
That's interesting because I feel that my "morals" are higher than what would be allowed were I to belong to a religion. (BTW I am not the only Atheist that thinks this way)
For example, as a humanist I feel all people should be treated with respect and tolerance and equality regardless or gender, age, race, religion, sexual orientation, skin colour, lifestyle choice, social/economic background, culture...
but I don't feel some religions teach or act this way.
I have had some honest people on this site tell me that they don't understand all about their religion, e.g. all male preisthood, and other things, possibly the anti gay sentiment. But they have gone on to say that they will go with their perception of the church's stance as they think the Church knows better than themselves. This is understandable in someways but is a delegation of this personal responsibility and could result in a violation of treating others with respect, tolerance and equality (IMHO)
[/quote]
The church does teach that all people should be treated with respect and tolerance and equality; it goes on to say that we should specifically love our enemy, not just our neighbor. We are taught to pray for those who persecute us. We are taught to be merciful and to be peacemakers. Matthew chapter 5 covers much of it, and it is a very high standard. This isn't just a Christian standard; in Leviticus God commands the Jews to treat foreigners as if they were native-born.

I have found that many disagreements stem from people different definitions or understandings of commonly used terms.

[CephaDrigan]

G.K. Chesterton would say that he was a little redundant though, because our neighbors and our enemies are usually the same people

[Azriel]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311794181' post='2276957']
That's interesting because I feel that my "morals" are higher than what would be allowed were I to belong to a religion. (BTW I am not the only Atheist that thinks this way)
For example, as a humanist I feel all people should be treated with respect and tolerance and equality regardless or gender, age, race, religion, sexual orientation, skin colour, lifestyle choice, social/economic background, culture...
but I don't feel some religions teach or act this way.

[/quote]

Unfortunately, I don't think its the religion that's the problem. People are still people. Bad people claim to be X religion. That doesn't mean they are acting according to their Religion or that the Religion taught them to act that way.

We are all faulty. Religious and non-religious alike.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311754010' post='2276745']
Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying.
You want me to leave this forum?
You think that I am harrassing people here?
Why the United States in particular?
Why Protestants?
[/quote]
No. LoL. I was joking about that. I was actually trying to make allies with you. Never thought you were harassing anyone here.

Why Protestants...hmmm....well....First of all....Not all of them are bad....Certain Protestant sects have some really strange beliefs, and these beliefs can lead to them falsely judging other people (in particular Catholics especially Atheists). And Im sick and tired of it.

Edited July 28, 2011 by infinitelord1

[cooterhein]

[quote name='dells_of_bittersweet' timestamp='1311298878' post='2273390']
So, all ye Protestants, non-denominational Christians, and all non-Catholic Christians, time to share your reasons for not being Catholic. That or join our phamily!
[/quote]It's not a matter of not being Catholic "yet," because I can't be Catholic. Well....actually, there's several reasons why I don't want to be Catholic, and there's several reasons why I've decided it's vastly preferable to not be Catholic. But there is one reason in particular why I can't be Catholic.

You know the whole baptismal regeneration thing? When you're baptized by Trinitarian formula, that's supposed to coincide with the time at which God regenerates you and causes you to become a Christian. In Catholic terms I think it means you're washed of the stain of original sin and placed in a state of grace, but in non-Catholic terms, it means the old man (unregenerate) is transformed into the new man (regenerate) and becomes part of God's family.

I was baptized in middle school. I can't remember the exact date on the certificate, but I know it was during the summer between seventh and eighth grade. That's not when I was regenerated. That happened during the summer between my freshman and sophomore years of college. I can't remember the exact date on that, but I could look at what was going on at the time and figure it out pretty easily.

Speaking in ballpark terms, though, baptism preceded regeneration by about six years. That's not consistent with the doctrine of baptismal regeneration, and even if I were inclined to (which I'm not), that would be enough for me to determine that I'm not in sufficient agreement with essential church doctrine in order to join the CC.

You might be wondering how it is that I know when I was baptized. That's easy, there's a certificate in a fireproof safe somewhere along with other important documents indicating the day on which I was baptized. That's the day I was baptized, and the date on the certificate corresponds to something that actually happened on that day. You also might be wondering how I know when I was regenerated. That's pretty easy, too. There was a particular day on which God regenerated me. It was about six years after I was baptized. I don't have a certificate, but the timeline I'm describing to you is accurate in its description of the sequence of events and the amount of time in between them. There was a particular day on which God regenerated me, and that's the day on which I was regenerated.

Another thing you might be wondering is why I decided that's an issue that would prevent me from being Catholic. If I were so inclined. Which, again, I'm not. That's kind of complicated and it's just this whole thing where I have to assess where a particular church stands on essential doctrines, places where it's something more like a set of boundaries, and places where they decline to comment in very specific ways. I've determined that the doctrine of baptismal regeneration is sufficiently "core" and my personal reservations about it are sufficiently "reality-based" and "unchangeable" that I could not (hypothetically) join the CC in good conscience when I know that I will always differ from Catholic teaching on this particular doctrine.

So that's the reason why I can't be Catholic. Baptism did not regenerate me. That isn't what happened. There was a six year gap. No argument can change that. No matter what you think [b]should[/b] have happened, this is what happened to me. And if prevents me from being Catholic. There's a variety of reasons why different things besides Catholicism are preferable to me, and there's a few more reasons why I think options other than Catholicism are better for Christianity as a whole in the long term. But the parameters on the doctrine of baptismal regeneration are the main reason why I [b]can't[/b] be Catholic.

[stevil]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1311820841' post='2277300']
No. LoL. I was joking about that. I was actually trying to make allies with you. Never thought you were harassing anyone here.

Why Protestants...hmmm....well....First of all....Not all of them are bad....Certain Protestant sects have some really strange beliefs, and these beliefs can lead to them falsely judging other people (in particular Catholics especially Atheists). And Im sick and tired of it.
[/quote]
Oh, sorry. I knew that I was confussed on how to read your post. Thanks for clarifying.
I am pretty naiive when it comes to religions. Don't actually know the difference between Catholics and Protestants. I know there have been some viscious conflicts in the past, but I don't know what about.

Maybe I should check out a Protestant forum for a while and find out if their culture is different.

[stevil]

[quote name='BigJon16' timestamp='1311766986' post='2276770']
I feel athiests believe what they want to beleive
[/quote]
Most people are like this with regards to beliefs. I'm sure people choose religion or churchs based on the best fit with regards to their own personal situation or moralities.
Same thing with believing in aliens or believing in OJ Simpson's innocence or guilt.
Lots of people choose to go with their gut feel on things regardless of the lack of information, evidence or knowledge.
We can't know everything so some intuition is required at times otherwise we never make decisions.
I'm really bad when it comes to intuition or gut feel, I like to have all the information and then make a well considered, informed decision. But I admit that I go too far at times in this direction.

[quote name='BigJon16' timestamp='1311766986' post='2276770']
the athiests I know are all fellow teenagers and are athiests because they just dont care, and would rather get drunk and high and party.
[/quote]
Ahh, the teenage life, carefree and invincible. Well, except for the issues of being insecure, being overly emotional, overly argumentative, overly sexual, overly enthusiastic, and the expectations that the world is black and white. It would be great to have the maturity and self confidence that comes with age but the energy and health that comes with youth.

[quote name='BigJon16' timestamp='1311766986' post='2276770']
reasons for being athiest other than "it lets me do what I want"
[/quote]
I've heard some theists make this argument before. I don't believe it for a second. Being an Atheist comes with great responsibility, you don't have the support of a Church with regards to morals, you need to learn for yourself about what you are comfortable accepting with regards to what you think is wrong and right.
If a person has a belief in god but wants to have lots of casual sex (for example), i don't think they can pretend to be an Atheist just to justify the sex. I mean, if you believe that the sun in NZ will give you a sunburn you certainly can't pretend to be in England and expect to go sun bathing and not get burnt. You are still going to get sun burnt whether you pretend not to believe.

[Papist]

"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church, which is of course, quite a different thing." ----Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

[havok579257]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1311856507' post='2277455']
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church, which is of course, quite a different thing." ----Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen
[/quote]

i love this quote. i believe this to be true.

[mortify]

any serious pursuit of spiritual growth will be met with difficulty... whether its catholicism, toaism, or sufism, etc... in general most people are not interested in difficulty, thats why perfection remains with the few

[BigJon16]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311848902' post='2277445']

I've heard some theists make this argument before. I don't believe it for a second. Being an Atheist comes with great responsibility, you don't have the support of a Church with regards to morals, you need to learn for yourself about what you are comfortable accepting with regards to what you think is wrong and right.
If a person has a belief in god but wants to have lots of casual sex (for example), i don't think they can pretend to be an Atheist just to justify the sex. I mean, if you believe that the sun in NZ will give you a sunburn you certainly can't pretend to be in England and expect to go sun bathing and not get burnt. You are still going to get sun burnt whether you pretend not to believe.
[/quote]


Ok, I see what you are saying, and it makes sense.

I dont mean to change subject, but I just have a quick question,
Would it be correct to say all athiests are then realitivists? Beleiving in the idea of realitivism?

[stevil]

[quote name='BigJon16' timestamp='1311878427' post='2277636']
I dont mean to change subject, but I just have a quick question,
Would it be correct to say all athiests are then realitivists? Beleiving in the idea of realitivism?
[/quote]
It is hard for me to speak for other Atheists as we have no common set of teachings or scripture, we are a very diverse bunch. In fact, most Atheists don't even know that they are Atheists as the term is not well promoted.

You can derive that a lack of belief in god means that we have no belief that god has set up an objective morality.
We also tend not to believe in complete free will, as we understand that our thoughts are influenced by our genetics, our upbringing, our culture, our diet, what we have been taught. With this understanding some of us believe that it is impossible for us to be 100% objective. But I don't think it is right to take relativism to the extreme and state that all points of view are equally valid. A lot of Atheists use the golden rule as a basis for their morality "treat others as you would like to be treated", with this position it is difficult to accept that a point of view which accepts "violation of other people" as being a valid POV.