Brother Adam Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311365464' post='2273954'] The thing about Atheism though is that there really isn't an -ism. It is simply a personal lack of belief I have in any of the god theories which are abound. [/quote] I don't know, it seems to me agnosticism would encompass the refusal to make a decision regarding God, where atheism is the decision that there is no God. The Kantian premise that accepts the "possibility that there may be a god" seems to be the best 'default' position for someone that has chosen not to believe in the Christian God. To reject even that seems unreasonable. As I mentioned, I believe that there is enough evidence from philosophy/natural reason (as the Church purports) to accept the existence of God. It is not a conclusion that can be reached on an Internet forum in the matter of a few days, just as I expect you would not be able to convert me to atheism in the course of a few posts on a message board. I believe such a scholarly pursuit is worth taking, even if it only leads you back to the position that there is a "possibility that there may be a god". I believe for the truly detached reasonable man, unconcerned with what the outcome will be will find himself convinced that not only is there a possibility that there may be a God, but that it the most reasonable position is that there truly is one. From there, historical evidence leads me to believe Jesus Christ is God and that the Christian story is the one true revelation of God to man. I think any good discussion of this topic though would need to start with Aristotle (not any contemporary apologist). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 extra ecclisium nulla sullus im sure i got that wrong limbo and there's some others per potential 'contradiction' and the lack of concrete enough exercise of papal authority in the earliest church, that even an orthodox could believe legit in no pope im sure there's other reasons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faithcecelia Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 As a convert, the reason I tried literally every other church in a 7mile ish radius first was because Catholics all have 3 heads and sharp claws growing out of the hairy toes, and i don't like hairy toes I don't really know why I was suprised it was where I ended up, mind, as it fitted absolutely to my prayer style etc. I was completely ostracised by my former denomination to the point that there are some who even now (11yrs later) will cross the road rather than acknowledge me in the streets, and thats painful. That said, its also painful; when Catholics are rude and insulting too, something I have experiences for the first time this past 18mths and ongoing. Vulnerable wreck that I was back then I thought the church would be one place I would be accepted but experience in and out of the parish has shown me that people seem far more likely to criticise and hurt first befire possibly talking and understanding later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 [quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1311383960' post='2274110'] I don't know, it seems to me agnosticism would encompass the refusal to make a decision regarding God, where atheism is the decision that there is no God. [/quote] There is much confusion in the world with regards to the definition of Atheist and Agnostic. These terms are quite different. Agnostic has no bearing on whether a person believes in god or not. A theist could also be agnostic, and an Atheist could be Agnostic. Most Atheists are weak Atheists, not Strong Atheists. Strong Atheists have a belief that there is no god, weak Atheists have a lack of belief in god but couldn't say categorically that god doesn't exist. If you are interested then here is a good thread that explains it quite well [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=113863"]What is an Agnostic Atheist.[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrestia Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311390780' post='2274152'] There is much confusion in the world with regards to the definition of Atheist and Agnostic. These terms are quite different. Agnostic has no bearing on whether a person believes in god or not. A theist could also be agnostic, and an Atheist could be Agnostic. [/quote] There are also religious atheists. Jainism, a very old, not well known Indian (not Native American) religion believes that there is no deity, but has a very strict moral code that includes reward & punishment based on adherence to the code. One of my old college roommates and closest friends is Jain. In all honesty, outside of their dietary restrictions, our worship & sacraments, the Jain moral code - how to treat people - is nearly identical to ours (Catholic). She jokes that I'm a Jain in training & I call her almost Catholic. Another major difference is that they believe in reincarnation. (I'm okay with going through this once.) She told me that we have anthropomorphized the natural universe's organizing power into a deity; I responded that it was God that made us in His image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 [quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1311375875' post='2274030'] Ah. Okay. When I said that there is no default position, I meant that there is no proof one way or the other, so we must choose. What you see as your default position I see as a choice that you have made. (I still don't know why you compared yourself to a dog and a car.) [/quote] To clarify, a dog and a car lack a belief in god. This does not mean that they believe that there is no god. They simply have no belief on the matter. In this way I am similar to them. Although I have heard and somewhat understood some god theries, I have not shifted from my default position. [quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1311375875' post='2274030'] Are you suggesting that most atheists are as thoughtful and responsible as you are? Or that most religious people are rigid and, therefore, irresponsible? [/quote] No, not at all. Just that Atheists must make their own decisions on each and every "moral" where-as it seems that church going theists are expected to align their understanding on morals with that which is taught by their church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrestia Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311394422' post='2274169'] No, not at all. Just that Atheists must make their own decisions on each and every "moral" where-as it seems that church going theists are expected to align their understanding on morals with that which is taught by their church. [/quote] People who choose to belong to religious groups do also make their own decisions on each & every moral issue. In one cases a person may change religious affiliation to fit his or her own personal morals, in another case a person may choose to remain in a religious organization despite disagreement over a moral issue. In regards to the latter case, some people might have a problem with it while others will not. While I don't really understand it, I will not say that someone should leave the Catholic church because they disagree with the Magisterium on an issue - especially if that person feels called to be Catholic. Everyone has a different journey in life - who am I to decide when & how someone else should understand God's word? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 [quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1311396162' post='2274188'] People who choose to belong to religious groups do also make their own decisions on each & every moral issue. In one cases a person may change religious affiliation to fit his or her own personal morals, in another case a person may choose to remain in a religious organization despite disagreement over a moral issue. [/quote] I also find this interesting, the idea of seeking a group that fits "me" instead of seeking truth. I think that many protestants do this - they seek a group that believes what they believe, and then adhere to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1311396680' post='2274194'] I also find this interesting, the idea of seeking a group that fits "me" instead of seeking truth. I think that many protestants do this - they seek a group that believes what they believe, and then adhere to that. [/quote] That's the thing with the Catholic Church. With it's claim to be Jesus' church, to claim to be divinely guided, to claim to be infallible, surely there can be no cherry picking. Either a person must accept all the teachings of the Catholic Church or hence believe that the Catholic Church is not what it claims to be. If this is the case then that person surely cannot claim to be Catholic. How can they follow the Church but not believe it or respect it on its claim to divinity. In my view a Christian who wants to interpret the Bible themselves and not take on the Church's interpretations, well this person cannot be Catholic. Please don't be upset, this is just my thoughts, I'm probably wrong and expect someone will show me just how wrong I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 (edited) [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311400752' post='2274221'] That's the thing with the Catholic Church. With it's claim to be Jesus' church, to claim to be divinely guided, to claim to be infallible, surely there can be no cherry picking. Either a person must accept all the teachings of the Catholic Church or hence believe that the Catholic Church is not what it claims to be. If this is the case then that person surely cannot claim to be Catholic. How can they follow the Church but not believe it or respect it on its claim to divinity. In my view a Christian who wants to interpret the Bible themselves and not take on the Church's interpretations, well this person cannot be Catholic. Please don't be upset, this is just my thoughts, I'm probably wrong and expect someone will show me just how wrong I am. [/quote] I agree with this. I can see Adrestia's point going to the point where a person who does not agree with everything the Church teaches could still remain in the Church, so long as that person is working towards/praying for an acceptance of the Church's teachings, and does not by word or deed contradict those teachings in the meantime. Edited July 23, 2011 by USAirwaysIHS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 but i think, excuse my ignorance, that God works in mysterious ways (euphemisms, gag me...sorry!) and His grace goes where it wills. A book i read, Last Words of Catholic Saints and Sinners, reminds me a lot of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrestia Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311400752' post='2274221'] That's the thing with the Catholic Church. With it's claim to be Jesus' church, to claim to be divinely guided, to claim to be infallible, surely there can be no cherry picking. Either a person must accept all the teachings of the Catholic Church or hence believe that the Catholic Church is not what it claims to be. If this is the case then that person surely cannot claim to be Catholic. How can they follow the Church but not believe it or respect it on its claim to divinity. In my view a Christian who wants to interpret the Bible themselves and not take on the Church's interpretations, well this person cannot be Catholic. Please don't be upset, this is just my thoughts, I'm probably wrong and expect someone will show me just how wrong I am. [/quote] I understand your view. Even if I didn't, nothing you said should make anyone upset - I don't think. Like I said above, I don't understand it myself, but I have seen it. I volunteered with a guy who chose not to receive Holy Communion for a while because he didn't believe in the true presence. He went to mass multiple times a week and worked with the Youth Group. He could explain the teachings even though he didn't believe them himself. He did eventually come to believe and now receives. I considered him to be as strong a Catholic as anyone else: by choosing not to receive until be believed, he demonstrated that he understood and respected the church's teachings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 [quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1311404079' post='2274245'] Like I said above, I don't understand it myself, but I have seen it. I volunteered with a guy who chose not to receive Holy Communion for a while because he didn't believe in the true presence. He went to mass multiple times a week and worked with the Youth Group. He could explain the teachings even though he didn't believe them himself. He did eventually come to believe and now receives. I considered him to be as strong a Catholic as anyone else: by choosing not to receive until be believed, he demonstrated that he understood and respected the church's teachings. [/quote] Yes, I would have an extremely high regard for this man, particularly with the pressure/scorn/bizarre looks associated with not going up to receive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinytherese Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311400752' post='2274221'] That's the thing with the Catholic Church. With it's claim to be Jesus' church, to claim to be divinely guided, to claim to be infallible, surely there can be no cherry picking. Either a person must accept all the teachings of the Catholic Church or hence believe that the Catholic Church is not what it claims to be. If this is the case then that person surely cannot claim to be Catholic. How can they follow the Church but not believe it or respect it on its claim to divinity. In my view a Christian who wants to interpret the Bible themselves and not take on the Church's interpretations, well this person cannot be Catholic. Please don't be upset, this is just my thoughts, I'm probably wrong and expect someone will show me just how wrong I am. [/quote] I actually see that as good food for thought. Not to sound uncharitable, but there are some people who I wonder why they stay Catholic if they do not respect the Church and have serious issues with it. It would be one thing if they decided to hold onto their Catholic identity and try to understand the Church's teachings on the issues that they struggle with. That I can understand. Some people might pick and choose what they like from multiple religious affiliations and put them all together to basically have their own church. I have friends and peers who do this. I know a couple of girls who say that they are Buddhist Christians. Another friend of mine I knew during my first two years of college, identified herself as Catholic and said her rosary, but she "church hopped" on sundays to various Protestant churches. I don't recall ever seeing her at Mass at the one Catholic Church in that small town. She may have also have dabbed into worshipping some goddess. (She and I were roommates and I saw a book about a goddess in the room which wasn't mine. I'm not sure if she was reading that for a class, was curious about her, or if she was actually looking into believing in her.) Others may think, "Well I've been Catholic all my life and not all of Catholicism is so bad. I'm partial to some of it." Some are Catholic out of a sense of obligation to their family. My dad converted to Catholicism for his wife so that the family would be united, even if he didn't believe in it. There may be other reasons as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polsky215 Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311367689' post='2273971']<br />1. I was born without a belief in god, so was my neighbor's dog. My car also laks a belief in god. It is the default position for me.<br />2. I have seen Catholics getting attacked by other Catholics on this forum when they disagree with Church teachings.<br />[/quote]<br /><br /><br /> Well judging by a cars default position you lack any knowledge including that of the material world, not to mention the spiritual. U except the physical world and deny the spiritual with some sort of a priori argument like i cant touch a spiritual thing thus it cant exist. You wouldnt except a blind person denying light because he couldnt see it. I think before you can deny the metaphysical you need to look through arguments for God with the souls reason and to pray. Otherwise you risk being like a baby who grows up refusing to open his eyes and denies light, justifying his actions by claiming blindness is the default position Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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